The Culture Nerds - A Leadership Podcast
Want to constantly grow as a leader and shape a great culture in your workplace? This is the podcast for you.
Of course, if you’re a yoghurt fan who typed in ‘culture’ and ended up here …(sorry, nerdy workplace culture joke). If you’re a serious person who believes serious topics must be covered in a serious way, we may not be the petri dish for you either.
But, if you want lived executive experience and decades working with corporate clients, government agencies & NFPs, all topped off by the hilarious hosts (at least we think so!), welcome - we're glad you could join us!
We nerd out on leadership and workplace culture – which is why we’re good at them. We tackle the topics you need to develop as a leader and to transform the workplace culture you have into the workplace culture you want. And we have fun doing it.
Hard hitting topics. Easy listening.
The Culture Nerds - A Leadership Podcast
The Deep End Delusion: Why Throwing Leaders In Doesn't Work
Text us your thoughts or questions
Links and resources mentioned in the show
Plenty in 20: The Coaching Leader (free, on-demand webinar with actionable strategies and tips)
The Culture Nerds Newsletter: a free monthly summary of subscriber resources
Authentic Leadership – a product page for those who want to explore the services we offer
What's next?
Talk to one of our culture and leadership experts - a free 30 minute consultation to problem solve any issue you are facing.
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Want some insight into your workplace culture? Take our free online Culture Survey here
Visit our website The Real Learning Experience
Thanks to our producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting
Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the Elders, past, present and emerging. Welcome to another episode of the Culture Nerds a leadership podcast. My name's Simon Tyson and I'm going to be your host in this episode. As with every month, we have a monthly theme around the resources that we provide for our subscribers, for our listeners. The reason we do that is we frequently hear from leaders about the things that are causing them the most challenges, the stuff that are causing them the most challenges, the stuff that they struggle with the most day by day in their life as leaders. What we decided to do is, as we create resources, let's create those in a cluster that pick off those problems one by one, and what we're tackling this month is the whole process around developing leaders. Now, that could be developing yourself or it could be developing the other leaders within your team, if you are already a more senior leader is our newsletter. It will be linked in the show notes. It's a great way, each month, to get a reminder of the resources created during that month and it will have links to everything I'm about to mention. In the show notes, there's a link where you can sign up to get a notification about that newsletter every month. The first of the resources this month is a blog around authentic leadership. What is it? What does it look like, how to do it? We've also created an infographic, a second resource that has some tips, some key strategies, in a neat format that you can print out and post on the wall. Again, around being an authentic leader almost a summary, if you like, of the blog.
Speaker 1:We've also got another edition of Plenty in 20. For new listeners, that's our on-demand webinar that you can watch in 20 minutes or less, full of punchy content, practical strategies. And this month it's around elevating your leadership with coaching conversations. A spoiler alert for you coaching, the number one skill that a leader can develop. I won't go into that any further. I'll leave you to explore that in the Plenty in 20 episode. And finally, we've got our product for the month. Many of you are contacting us because you would like to work at a deeper level with us, and our product page talks about specific services we can provide. This month's product page is around our Authentic Leadership Program, a series of workshops we run to develop leaders. We can do a one-off program for you. We can do an ongoing program that might last three months, six months, even 12 months or longer, if that's something that would interest you. If you need that support and your leaders need that development and you may change your mind during the course of this episode then reach out. We'd love to have a chat, tell you what that would look like and see if it lines up for you. So let's get into the podcast.
Speaker 1:Today I'm going to talk about cliches. Now, before I get into talking about, it's a specific cliche. It's a specific cliche that does a lot of harm. It does a lot of harm to your organization. It does a lot of harm to your leaders. It does a lot of harm to your culture, to your leaders. It does a lot of harm to your culture. Before we do that, let's just talk about what a cliche is.
Speaker 1:So it's a phrase or an idea, a belief, if you like. That's overused. It often reflects conventional, I would say outdated, thinking. It's something that is accepted as a universal truth, when it may, and often isn't. Sometimes clichés can offer some insight and the danger there is that their ability to offer insight at times means we universalize. I'm not even sure if that's a word, but it sure as heck should be. We universalize our belief around it and say well, if it provides some insight, some value in one instance, then it must be true at all times, and that's absolutely not the case.
Speaker 1:They can lose meaning over time. We're often still relying upon cliches that no longer have relevance to the world we live in. They limit creativity, they suppress critical thinking, they limit the way we view and communicate with other people, and we lose nuance in our understanding and our thinking. So none of those good things. It doesn't mean we should throw out all cliches. It does mean that we shouldn't just wisely nod and trot out some cliche without thinking about it as though it's some pearl of wisdom, because very often they're not.
Speaker 1:So the cliche that I really want to talk about today, a really specific one, is just lazy. It's a lazy, lazy cliche, and I'm sorry if you use this as a leader. I want you to look yourself in the mirror and say, when I do that I'm being lazy. It's an excuse for laziness. Cliches hurt people. They're dangerous because we hide behind them. Leaders hide behind them, people hide behind them. They come to carry truth because they're repeated so often. Yet they often don't have anywhere near that same level of truth. In fact, when they're used about leaders they can, and particularly the one I'm going to talk about today is that they do multiple damage, because they not only harm the leader you're using it about which may be yourself but they have a massive flow-on effect, and I know I'm building this up and I'm going to come to it, but let's just throw out a few cliches. If we're going to challenge cliches, let's just challenge a few of these.
Speaker 1:You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Now I will argue until I'm blue in the face that I'm not an old dog yet, but I'm not a young dog either and I sure as heck can be taught new tricks. I learn new things every day. Probably my pace of growth in the last two years has been higher than it's been for decades because I'm evolving things, I'm taking on new challenges. If you believe that I can't learn new tricks because I'm an old dog, you'll stop trying to teach me and you'll limit my growth. If you look at the people in your team and believe that, then you pigeonhole them. It also suggests that, oh well, young people, young dogs, they can learn really fast. There might be some correlation between ages, which is where the cliche comes from, but it's not absolute.
Speaker 1:And if you hide behind that lazy leadership If it ain't broke, don't fix it what a load of rubbish. That's an excuse to tolerate mediocre. Sure, there are times where we go we don't need perfect here, we just need something that's functional. So it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's the truth in the cliche, but sometimes we use that as an excuse for not challenging ourselves to do things better. Don't rock the boat, bunker. In fact, some of the great cultures that we work with are full of people who respectfully rock the boat. Let sleeping dogs lie. Let's not raise issues that we shouldn't and, of course, when we do that in the workplace culture, we suppress the issues we should be talking about and create tension, a lack of honesty, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1:You can't have your cake and eat it too. Why not? Why can't I? Sometimes I can't, but does it mean I can never have that? Should I not aspire to getting the best of both worlds? Should I not aspire to getting an ideal outcome? Let's have a look at some that are specifically around people and the way we view people and might limit their growth might limit our ability to help them grow and their opportunity to grow. You either have it or you don't. What a load of rubbish. Now, that absolutely applies to things that have to be innate traits that we're born with or we're not. But so much of what we deal with in workplaces is learned, and it's only learned if we've got the opportunity, and we only provide those opportunities if we believe that people are capable of taking them.
Speaker 1:Boys will be boys. There's a very dangerous cliche behind which a whole world of evil lurks. We could unpack that one all day. That's an excuse. What we're saying is I know I should deal with it, but I don't want to. So I'll say boys will be boys. I'll look at you and nod, and now I don't have to deal with uncomfortable issues. We just have to embrace that moment and say boys might be being boys, but that's not okay. We need to deal with it. A bit like you can't teach an old dog new tricks, leopards don't change their spots.
Speaker 1:Again, a really unfortunate cliche that leads us to not forgive people or not allow people to grow or move past their mistakes. So why would they bother trying if we've got that limiting belief? So let's, after all that buildup and hopefully having you sit listening to this thinking are there cliches I use, that I hide behind, that are a cover for laziness, lazy thinking, for a lack of willingness to deal with things? I really hope that's where your mind is right now challenging yourself, examining your beliefs, the cliches you use. I hope you hear them next time you say them.
Speaker 1:So let's get to the one that really worries me from a leadership development perspective this month's theme, and that's the cliche, the cliched belief that you just throw people in at the deep end. People, that's how people learn, and we've got a whole bunch of things that are like that. Don't we Sink or swim baptism by fire? Learning the hard way. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. What a load of bunker macho crap. Eh, no pain, no gain. Sure, learning can be painful, growth can be painful, but do we have to build pain into it Again? Often this is hiding a laziness, a lack of commitment to doing things well, to doing it properly. Tough love is often used as an excuse for treating people badly, for poor leadership behaviours. So let's go back to throwing people in the deep end and why I think that is a really dangerous concept and why we've got to move on from it.
Speaker 1:When we throw people, forget leaders for a minute. When we throw people in the deep end, when we let them sink or swim, if we extend that metaphor one of the consequences of that is they drown. Now, obviously, in a workplace, we're not literally having people drown, but we absolutely metaphorically have people drown when we throw them in the deep end. They can't cope in the deep end and so they sink. They lose confidence. People lose confidence in them. They start to believe this is not the right place for us. We look at them and go, oh, there's something wrong with them. We need better people when we created the situation in the first place. So what do we suggest that you do? We absolutely got to put people in the pool, but we should throw them in the shallow end. Throw them in the shallow end, teach them to swim and nudge them towards the deep end.
Speaker 1:There are absolutely people in every workplace, in every team, who either don't back themselves, they don't have the confidence. Maybe they're being a bit lazy and trying to stay within a comfort zone instead of challenging themselves. So they'll congregate at the shallow end, even once they can swim. Our goal as a leader is to throw them in the shallow end. Give them some skills, give them some strategies, nudge them into deeper water and as they go into deeper water, we keep developing them. So our process of developing people keeps pace with the water. We expect them to sink, swim in and, of course, as they get more and more skillful, we nudge them towards the deep end because we know that they're capable there. We know they've got the skills they need, the confidence they need to work at the deep end. So, instead of throwing them in the deep end, how about we develop them? Put them in the shallow end and encourage them towards the deep end. It's a much more controlled process. Then we're not going to have these situations where we're throwing our hands in the air going.
Speaker 1:What's wrong with people? Why can't they just do what we asked them to do, et cetera? Because we threw them in the bloody deep end and they couldn't swim. So let's return to leaders. I was talking generically there about team members.
Speaker 1:What happens when we throw a leader in the deep end? Well, it's magnified, isn't it? So? The consequences for them. They start making mistakes, they start losing confidence, as with everyone else, but their people also lose confidence in them. Their people are in an environment where their leader is sinking or swimming, where their leaders in the deep end are not equipped for it. So their people are getting a flow-on consequence of this person who can't provide them the support they need has got too much on their plate and of course, that then flows through to results and we start to see the culture struggling because the leader in the deep end, who's not ready for the deep end, is not dealing with the issues they need to deal with. They're not driving the accountability, they're not driving the standards, they're not providing direction and clarity, they're not giving feedback. There's not consistency because they're just struggling to stay afloat and, as I said, both results suffer and the culture takes a hit because in the absence of those things direction, clarity, accountability, feedback, standards, consistency I could go on all day In the absence of those things, results must suffer and culture suffers because people become frustrated. There's not consistency around behaviors as well as around results, et cetera.
Speaker 1:And then what we do standing on the side of the pool watching them struggle is we come to the conclusion that what we need are better leaders. Maybe it was a mistake putting this person in the role Now there was definitely a mistake, but maybe it wasn't putting them in the role. We'll return to that in a minute. So we decide we need better leaders and of course, in the modern world we can't act. We look at this person and go well, I'm a bit stuck with them and now we should act, but maybe not in the way you're thinking. But we're a bit stuck with them and so they flounder, they splash around, it gets harder for them, maybe they start to do a bit better, but it's still a struggle. I've still lost confidence. Your relationship with them isn't great and eventually they leave and we put we go right, got this opportunity, I'll put someone else into the role and we find the next great thing and we chuck them in the deep end and a month later they're floundering around, splashing around, struggling, and we start to build this belief of geez, it's hard to find good people.
Speaker 1:Now, if you're a regular listener, you'll know that I have a very strong belief that there are very few remarkably good or remarkably bad people. And I'm not talking about them as human beings, I'm talking about them as members of our team. There are very few remarkably good or remarkably bad. I know there's a couple, but they're an exception, and don't kid yourself that. Oh gee, I just seem to have unluckily got all the remarkably bad ones. If that's happening, there's a common ingredient, and I'll let you figure out what the common ingredient is.
Speaker 1:Our belief is that there are just normal people responding to the workplace culture and here's the biggie and the leadership they're exposed to. Their poor performance, their struggles, their inability to provide accountability, their inability to give clarity, etc. Is not a result of their character. It's a result of the leadership and the culture they're exposed to, because that leadership, that culture, chucked them in the deep end. Now, our answer is not to find better people and to constantly cycle through people until we find someone who can magically swim. The answer is to change the process. Because if we change the process, if our culture is not one of throwing people in the deep end, if it's one of throwing people in the shallow end and teaching them to swim, then nudging them to the deep end, we're going to do better. Now, on that point, there are some people it's okay to throw in the middle.
Speaker 1:There are some people it's okay to throw in the deep end, as long as it's based upon an assessment of their capacity. So if we've looked at them and said this person's ready for the deep end, let's throw them in there. Let's keep an eye on them, but let's throw them in there, then that's fine. That's proactive leadership. Doing it by default is, as I said before, lazy leadership. So let's talk about solutions, because I want to keep today's episode punchy for you. Let's talk about solutions.
Speaker 1:If you have people who are currently in the deep end and who are struggling, the first step is be honest. Stop judging them. Stop judging them for their struggles. Look in the mirror and say are their struggles a result of the process we've used? If the answer is genuinely no they're not capable and they never will be capable of being in the deep end with any amount of development then, okay, you've got the wrong person in the role. Again, don't delude yourself. I would say that is going to be the minority. Most people not all people most people have the capacity to be a strong leader, and I'm going to come back to that in a minute, because the exception to that is perhaps not the one that we think it is, but most people have the capability as long as they're given the right development, the right support.
Speaker 1:I would love for you to pick up the phone and say Simon, I've made an issue, I've made an error. We've got a whole bunch of managers in our organization. We've thrown them in the deep end and expected them to be great leaders. Come in and work with us, and we'll welcome that call and love to have a chat with you. But please don't overlook again, in your haste to put a bandaid on this, don't overlook the first solution. And the first solution is the way you lead them. Now, if you take that first step and look at the way you lead them, then we can have a tremendous impact for you as well. But if you don't take that first step and look at the way you lead them, then we can have a tremendous impact for you as well. But if you don't take that first step and look at the way you lead them, then what we do will have some impact, but it is only going to be a band-aid.
Speaker 1:70% of what your people ever learn they will learn on the job, not from a formal course like what we provide. They learn in micro moments. They learn from mini feedback, micro feedback. They learn from the coaching. We're circling all the way back to the beginning, aren't we with that? Plenty and 20. The most important skill a leader can develop is coaching. So they learn from the micro coaching that you do, where you guide them around their knowledge, around their skills, around their attitudes and thinking. So you've got to address it at that level and of course, we'd love to address it at the more formal learning level with you.
Speaker 1:One of the biggest flaws we have in the workplace in Australia and in many for our overseas listeners, for most of your countries, for most organisations, in most of your countries. There are some wonderful exceptions, but the only way to get ahead in Australia, in most organisations, is to be promoted. I'm going to be promoted, I'm going to make more money, I'm going to have more status, I'm going to feel like I'm progressing. I'm going to take on more challenging tasks. Oh, what do you mean? I'm supposed to be a leader as part of that and it's sort of tacked on the side. It's becoming a leader is sort of almost the side effect of being promoted to be a manager or being a more senior manager, when in reality the most important difference as people move through the chain is their responsibility for people. So instead of being the side thing, it should be the primary thing, because it is the side thing.
Speaker 1:We tend to assume oh, they've been doing their job for a long time, they've been here for ages, they're highly competent, et cetera. We tend to assume they'll be good as leaders as well, and that's a really poorly founded belief and there's overwhelming evidence that shows there is not a correlation between good at task and being good as a leader. People might be good at both, but they may not be, and that's the result of that belief is that we go they'll be fine in their new job and they end up in the deep end. And they might cope really well on the task front, but they're in the deep end and they're drowning. On the leadership front I mentioned, where you look at what you can do to support them in terms of micro feedback, micro opportunities to develop, combined with external courses wonderful combination to help your people. They're in the deep end already. You put them there. So let's give them the skills, let's work on helping them cope in the deep end.
Speaker 1:It's a lot easier to do that than say, oh, let's drag them towards the shallow end, because that feels punitive. Operationally that can be really challenging. It can imply to other people that you've lost confidence in them, et cetera, et cetera. So let's deal with the fact they're in the deep end and give them what they need. If you've got people who you haven't thrown in the deep end yet and you're likely to throw in the deep end what we would call your emerging leaders, then be proactive now. And it's exactly the same strategies. There's all sorts of things you can do on the job to deal with the 70% of what they learn on the job.
Speaker 1:The best time for someone to learn to be a leader is before they need to be, so see if you can give them opportunities, see if you can give them learning, see if you can have them observing or being mentored by another leader. That's the internal stuff you can do and again, obviously, the external courses, and we have a wonderful Emerging Leaders Program which is one of the product pages on our website. Would love to talk with you about that as well. So it really comes into two categories. You've either thrown them in the deep end and you've got to now help them cope there, or you are about to, or might soon in the future, throw them into the deep end. Prepare them for it before you do.
Speaker 1:I hope you've enjoyed this episode. A reminder jump into the show notes. The link to all those resources I've mentioned are there, as is the opportunity to sign up to our newsletter and the opportunity to check out that product page on Authentic Leadership. As I say, there's another one, a separate page, on Emerging Leaders. Would love to talk with you about both programs. I'll see you again next month and in the meantime, stay authentic, thank you. Come and see the real thing. Come and see the real thing. Come and see. Come and see the real thing. Come and see the real thing.