The Culture Nerds - A Leadership Podcast

The Rules of the Pool

• Simon Thiessen & Kirralea Walkerden

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The Rules of the Pool
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This episode focuses on the role of accountability in shaping workplace culture and emphasises the impact of individual contributions. We discuss how open communication, courageous conversations, and shared responsibility lead to a healthier work environment.

Key points from the pod:

  • Our new approach to the content we create for you – monthly themes. Each month will developed pods, blogs, free 20 minute webinars, and resources around a specific theme (this month is Creating a Culture of Accountability) – along with a specific product offering for those who need more support
  • The connection between individual actions and choices, and workplace culture
  • Using metaphors to foster discussions on accountability 
  • The importance of courageous conversations in addressing issues
  • Encouraging teams to create their own shared understandings around standards of performance and interpersonal communication
  • The role of leadership in modelling positive culture
  • Recognising conflict as a constructive aspect of team dynamics
  • Strategies for fostering ownership of workplace culture
  • Rules of the Pool download  = resource download for managers

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Want to check out how Authentic your organisation is? Take our free online Authentimeter Assessment tool here

You can find full shownotes for this episode and more here

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Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au

Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.

Thanks for listening!

Kirralea:

Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the Elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, welcome back to our first episode for the year of the Culture Nerds. It has been a while since we've recorded, hasn't it Simon?

Simon:

What do you mean? We said we'd do one every month. And we did one in what? September 2024?.

Kirralea:

That's about right, isn't it? We didn't actually record that. That was our producer that put together some gold for us in the last months of the year, but, yes, we are back recording. Producer that put together some gold for us in the last months of the year. But, yes, we are back recording. We caught up at the end of last year and we put some big plans around the podcast, and there's even bigger plans around the podcast with some themes that we're going to do Supporting resources.

Kirralea:

Yeah, and we had a chat at the end of last year just about what the podcast looks like and what the feedback from our listeners had been, and we've decided that each month this year we'll have a theme and that theme- and we mean a theme not just for the podcast, we mean for all of the resources we make available to our network out there.

Kirralea:

Absolutely, and so that theme, underneath that theme, we'll have our podcast. We'll have a resource that we will produce, which will be either a blog or it might be something downloadable that you can work with your teams on. There'll be a free Plenty in 20, which is our free webinar series that occurs every month and so that will have an underlying theme associated as well, and then, at the end how long do they go for Kiralee? Plenty in 20. They go for 20 minutes, Simon.

Simon:

We should make that more obvious, shouldn't we?

Kirralea:

We should, so perfect for people that want to get a lot of information very quickly. And then at the end of the month we will have a newsletter which will wrap everything up for the month and give everyone links to everything, just in case anyone has missed anything.

Simon:

It was a bit of a reality check, wasn't it?

Kirralea:

It was yes.

Simon:

We have a couple of personality traits Some of our long-term listeners may have picked up on these. One of them is that we like to chase all the hairs all at once and we end up trying to do too much, and some of the feedback was awesome resources, but can you be a bit more focused? And so we've taken that on board and we're going to chase one big hair every month. We're going to catch the bugger and then we're going to look at another one.

Simon:

And the other personality trait I think we've got going on is that we're both idealistic and one of my friends calls me time optimistic that I always think things are going to take less time than they do and so that's why we're going to commit, unlike the last four or five months, to a podcast every month, and for a while there we were trying to do one a week. It just isn't realistic. We've got so many clients that are booking time with us. We just can't fit that in. So we're going to commit to something we can do, and if there's bonus episodes, they're exactly that a bonus. But we're going to be really disciplined this year, aren't we? And make sure that every month we do all of those things we talked about within each theme, and next month we'll move on to a new theme.

Kirralea:

Yes, and within that theme, every month there'll also be a product, because we've also had listeners contact us after we've discussed different topics within the podcast, wondering how they can get more information on this. Or we've had clients say or they weren't actually clients, they were listeners that then became our clients that said this is exactly what's happening in my workplace. You know, can you come and help us or can I get some advice, or how do we navigate through here? So we've decided that within that theme will be a product that our listeners will be able to access, and they'll then can decide whether our free resources is enough for them to be able to access, and they'll then can decide whether our free resources is enough for them to be able to navigate through their needs, or sometimes it is that next step along where they'd like to have a conversation with us and see how that product fits within their needs, within their organization and either way, we're happy.

Simon:

If we can absolutely, we can help you with the free resources and we've made a difference in your organization. That's brilliant. If you need more help, then we'd love to talk with you.

Kirralea:

Absolutely. So, starting with February, this month's theme is around a culture of accountability and our podcast today. What we'll talk about will sit below this, but, Simon, you might want to chat a little bit about the background of what we mean by a culture of accountability and why we chose this as a theme.

Simon:

And look, one of the things that one of the things I do want to emphasise is that all the resources won't be just rehashes of each other. They will be different things that come together to support that theme for you as a leader in your workplace each month. So there's a bit of a. There's a metaphor that I use that made you cringe and I'm going to take it. You can talk a little bit about your reaction to it.

Simon:

When I first mentioned this many years ago and for the parents driving home kids in the back seat, it's not going to be. You don't have to turn the volume down. In fact, your kids will probably find it as funny as I do, because they're probably as silly and puerile as I am. But basically, what it came down to is or this whole thing came out of my observations as a senior leader and as an external consultant and often I've done those two things simultaneously of seeing people complaining about the workplace culture they work in but not actually doing anything about it, this underlying belief that it's someone else's job and you've heard this, kiralee, hundreds of times in organisations you've worked in. You know people throw away things like oh well, someone should do something about this, or management should do something about this culture. You've heard that, haven't you?

Kirralea:

Yeah, it's not my problem. How am I meant?

Kirralea:

to fix it

Simon:

Exactly. And it's so, this sense that workplace culture is something separate from us, that workplace culture is something separate from us. The irony I've found is that while people are complaining about the culture, they're actually hurting the culture. So they're standing around in a group of people whinging about something, whinging about a manager, whinging about a decision, whinging about a team member, whinging about the culture, and all the while they're actually damaging the culture. And that's where the metaphor came from. People do things like they'll stand around saying, oh, the culture is so negative and so gossipy and so unsupportive, and they're actually doing the exact behaviours that create that. So I'll come to the metaphor in a minute.

Simon:

But it was driven by that and by a specific experience I had which set a light bulb off in my mind, and it was probably something I'd already. I had always understood or understood for many years. But just seeing it in this particular example, I was a senior leader with an organisation. We had a number of outlets let's say 20, and I'm going to change some of the facts to protect the guilty, or some of the details to protect the guilty, but the core of what I'm telling you is exactly as it occurred and in this organisation there was one particular site that's culture was disgusting. It made me feel dirty. I'd go there as a senior leader and I'd feel like I needed a shower afterwards. It was this veneer. You know how are things. They're great, everyone's nice and everyone's supportive and all that sort of stuff, but beneath the surface they're stabbing each other in the back, they're undermining, they're complaining about decisions. So there was no honesty, but there was all this unhappiness and there was zero chance of the unhappiness being resolved because they wouldn't be honest about it. They talked, exactly like I said before, about how bad. When you really got them talking about how poor the culture was, but they thought it was someone else's job to fix it.

Simon:

And when I actually sat down with them and said, honestly, let's all gloves off, how do you feel about the culture here? They said it's awful. We hate coming to work here. And when I said, what are you going to do about it, they looked at me and said well, it's not our problem, you should do something about it. And my question was why? Me? And their response was well, you're the senior leader, it's up to you to fix the culture. And the mirror I held up for them was wait there.

Simon:

We've got a lot of sites 20 sites and 19 of them don't have the culture you've got here. They're not perfect, but none of them are like this. They're somewhere between good and exceptional. If I create the culture here, why isn't it the same at all 20 locations? And they looked at me and they give them their credit. They did look in the mirror and they had some understandings that. So it's unique to our workplace. Therefore, it must be something that's happening here. Perhaps the things we're doing are creating our culture. Perhaps it's not simply decisions that senior leaders are making in a head office kilometres from here. Maybe it's, and no doubt that influences it. By the way, senior leaders listening in. You're not exempt from this, but it went way beyond what I did there, what I was doing and what other senior leaders were doing. So, kiralee, that brings us to the metaphor. Now, maybe you'd like to tell the listeners about your reaction to the metaphor when I first came up with it.

Kirralea:

Yes, when you first used this and I think you actually caught me off guard because you used it in front of a client for the first time and so those clients got my first reaction that was I simply cringed at this. But the more we have used it, the more I have to eat my hat to say that it just resonates it is.

Simon:

It's so good at explaining workplace culture to clients and to people and for people to understand their role in in workplace culture and what it means and, and we can talk with clients, and we can talk with a group, uh, and we go to a whole bunch of stuff and often the thing they remember absolutely months and years later is this particular story.

Kirralea:

Or we'll be talking about the workplace culture and the role everyone plays and the responsibility that everyone has, and everyone sits there, and then you use this and everyone goes. Yes, that is so true. I get it, I get it.

Simon:

It doesn't stop you doing the eye roll every time I talk about it. No, it doesn't.

Kirralea:

They're not quite as severe. The eye rolls now because like I said. I have had to go, you know maybe there's merit to this. I don't find it as funny. You still have a hilarious giggle whenever you use this.

Simon:

So this is not about bigging up what we've come up with. The reason I'm talking about it like this is managers, you can use this metaphor as a way to help your teams get their impact on the culture as well. So, essentially, what we believe is every choice, every decision made by every person at every level, every day impacts the culture level. Every day impacts the culture. They're like a drop. Every one of those things is like a drop of water and they all go together to form this pool and you've got a pool. And if you've got lots of good drops going in there, you've got a good pool. You've got a good culture. If you've got a mix of drops, you might have a slightly tainted culture. If you've got a lot of bad drops, and we can unpack what bad drops and good drops look like later.

Simon:

But I think our listeners get that. You know when people are making bad choices, bad decisions about the way they interact, about the way they operate, about their work ethic, about their communication, about the way they treat each other, et cetera, so they all go into this pool and there's our culture and that group that I talked about. That said well, if we're going to change culture, you need to change it. For us, what they thought was that culture was something you looked at. They thought that that pool was something that you came to work each day and sat beside and I know you, carolee, what would you be doing if you were sitting beside the pool?

Kirralea:

I'd be sitting by the pool with mojito or something like that something like that so I don't like being splashed okay that's a whole different analogy.

Simon:

So they thought they were watching the culture and they were over here talking about it and complaining about it and gossiping about it, and that was separate from or immune to the culture, and that culture was over there and someone else was creating that culture. And I guess the mirror I held up for them help them understand that and the phrase that we use and I coined this phrase with them to help them understand you can't do culture without getting wet, so you don't come to work and look at the culture, sit by the pool. You come to work and you are the culture. You get in the pool, so we're all in the pool together. And of course, this is where the metaphor comes from, because then, when we're in the pool, everything we do in the pool impacts the culture, and sometimes people do things in swimming pools we wish they wouldn't, don't they? Hence?

Kirralea:

Starting to cringe.

Simon:

Hence the metaphor, peeing in the pool. And what that means is that sometimes people come to work and they say I want a good culture, and they get in the pool and they pee in it, and then of course, they have to swim in that. So because we're in the pool, they have to swim in it, we have to swim in it. And so if you've got a lot of people peeing in the pool, you've got a pretty awful pool that you've got to come to and swim each day. No wonder Sunday night comes around and you think, geez, I don't want to go there on Monday morning, because who wants to get in a pool full of pee?

Simon:

But if you've got a great, pristine pool where people are making good choices and good decisions and you've got lovely water, then on Sunday night, sure, you might wish you could go to the beach the next day, but you're not going to go to bed filled with dread at the idea of going to work the next day, because you're going somewhere that's good, you're going somewhere that's positive. So peeing in the pool is all about helping people recognise that you want a better culture, so you better treat it well. If you want a great culture, look at what you're doing to impact it. There's another phrase, another saying that. I read once that no one washes a rental car. So if you think the culture isn't yours, it's something over there, it's something that's separate to you, you're not going to look after it. But if you recognise this is my culture, this is something that I create, something that I own, something that I'm part of, then we're much more likely to look after it. Does this all make sense?

Kirralea:

Absolutely, it makes sense.

Simon:

And well done you, because that was a really little cringe.

Kirralea:

It was, wasn't it, I told?

Simon:

you. I saw the eye roll.

Kirralea:

I'm getting better at it. So our listeners now know what we mean by peeing in the pool and the background to it about. You know, everybody contributes to the water in the pool and everyone needs to be in the pool and be responsible for maintaining that water quality, which is responsible for maintaining that culture that we all want to come to work in. What happens when we have someone that doesn't take that responsibility for their impact? Because our listeners now I'm imagining they're thinking, yeah, okay, we get that. And maybe some of them are thinking, hmm, I know someone that actually does that to our pool, or maybe you're someone that does that to the pool yourself.

Simon:

You know what we all pee in the pool.

Kirralea:

Absolutely, we all do.

Simon:

You know and I don't mean literally here, by the way I'm a swimmer and if anyone's peeing in the pool I swim in three times a week I'm really upset. But we all pee in the pool. We all get things wrong. You and I are talking. One day I'm tired, I don't pay enough attention to what you're saying, or I'm a bit impatient, or whatever. That's a little bit of pee in the pool, isn't it? That's not my best action, so we can't beat ourselves up for not being perfect, but you've got some people out there with bloody big bladders and you know they're very keen to pee in the pool abundantly and then complain that the water's not what they want.

Simon:

The first thing I'm going to say, like in terms of how to manage, is use this. I've got a couple of really big tips here I hope that really are helpful for people. The first is use the metaphor. Have an honest conversation with people. Sit in your team and talk about this and use the metaphor. Play them the podcast, get everyone to listen to this podcast so that you're all on the same page, and then have a conversation about what not peeing in the pool looks like and maybe what peeing in the pool looks like the problem we have. So that's number one. The second thing is to get go on. Did you have a question?

Kirralea:

I was just about to say say, to help people frame that our resource this month will actually be a printable.

Simon:

Free resource too.

Kirralea:

Yeah, free resource will actually be a downloadable A3, which is a peen in the pool rules of the pool. It's a bit of a tongue tie, isn't it? So you can print off your own. It's a picture, it's a, it's a really nice graphic that gives people a something to really think about, and you can create your own rules of the pool and that will just get that common language being used within your team. And there's a video that that we've produced as well, which gives you just a little bit of a how-to and and that might be something that you watch as their leader or their manager, or something that you share with them as well to help them get an understanding of it. But if you're listening to what Simon's talking about and thinking, this is what I need to do, how am I going to do this? We've got you covered and the information will be within the podcast info.

Simon:

And that's a really good thing to do in a little team. Yeah, like it's the rules of the pool to sit down and say okay, and it's got a graphic on it and it's got areas to write the rules of the pool and there's a video that will go with that, that will guide you through how to do it and something you can show your teams as part of the process and I will come back to rules a bit later, because there's a really important distinction between rules and values. But for individual small teams trying to do this, then the rules of the pool is a really great thing. It's how we're going to treat each other, how we're going to look after each other. I want listeners out there. Some of you are in hotter environments than me, so I'm sweltering through a 23 degree degree day in hobart today, uh, while kira lee suffers through 30, 3300 or something some ridiculous some 40 degrees in auburn or whatever.

Simon:

So, um, yeah, I don't have a pool, but some of our listeners out there in warmer climates might. Now, honestly, if I came round to your pool and I stood on the edge of it let's not make this too visual but I stood on the end of it and I peed in your pool, you sure as heck would feel entitled. Let's not make this visual. I'm not sure, continue though you sure as heck would feel entitled to say that's not okay.

Kirralea:

Yes, absolutely.

Simon:

Yeah, Yet in the workplace people don't feel entitled to hold each other accountable.

Kirralea:

People hold back, don't they? We hold back and we second guess ourselves. Should I say something? What will happen if I say something, will I rock the boat?

Simon:

what if I upset them? What if they complain, etc, etc.

Kirralea:

So what if they don't like me anymore? What if they don't talk to me anymore? There's all these things that play out, isn't? It's all the things that that we work with people on?

Simon:

and managers. Some of you will hate dealing with these situations, so you'll stand back and watch people pee in the pool, and it may be around performance, as in technical performance, job performance. It may be around the way they treat each other and the interpersonal reactions, but they're doing things that aren't accountable. And some managers out there, because you hate dealing with these things, you're standing back and watching people when they pee in the pool. For some managers out there, you're on this, but for you there's another level, because you know what. We don't have genuine accountability in the workplace until accountability goes beyond managers. So if the only way we have accountability in the workplace is a manager sees something or a manager hears about something and deals with it, then that's a superficial level of accountability. Genuine accountability comes when team members hold each other accountable. When they say, hey, I'm swimming in this pool, I'm in this water with you, stop peeing in it, and that could be a conversation around. Look, I don't feel comfortable with the way you talk to those people. It doesn't make our workplace healthy. It doesn't make it somewhere that's good for us all to come to, and people should feel 100% entitled to do that, because what they're doing is they're holding each other accountable and the manager doesn't need to see everything. Now, in some organizations, the only way those things get dealt with is when someone and I'm using air quotes here, but it doesn't really translate on a podcast, does it, but tells on someone else, and then the manager that I've got to go and deal with this trivial stuff. That should be two adults dealing with stuff together. Hey, can I talk to you about the project we're working on? I'm really proud of coming to work here and I don't feel that you're doing your part here, and I want to talk to you about what that might look like, and that should be okay.

Simon:

We have two paradigms. We have these two belief systems that get in the way, and one is you're not my, you can't tell me what to do, and the other is it's not my job to say anything, I'm not a manager, and we have to get those out of the workplace if we want a genuine workplace of accountability, and one of the ways to do that is to say to everyone it's your pool, you're entitled to come to work every day and swim in the best water available, to work every day and swim in the best water available, and therefore, if someone's polluting that water, you should be entitled to say something, and not only are you entitled to as your manager. I'm going to support you in that.

Simon:

So often when we say managers, someone does the right thing and tries to build accountability and their manager, who is conflict diverse and is just after harmony, actually punishes the person who did the right thing and says can you just stop making trouble, can you stop rocking the boat? And I'm not saying someone out there complaining about everyone and having goes against all their colleagues is doing the right thing. But the person who quite carefully tries to raise an issue with their colleague and that creates conflict, give them a bloody medal because they're a hero. They're doing what you want done, and if that can become the norm, then accountability in a workplace becomes genuine.

Kirralea:

Absolutely. It's so much about the way your team and the way your organisation views conflict, and we don't want to always view conflict as negative, because conflict is good. You want conflict in a workplace. You want people, healthy conflict. You want people that can have robust conversations. You want people that are willing to hold each other accountable in a really respectful way and people that are courageous enough to have the conversations that bring these things to the top, because you will have those listeners that have been around and listened to our previous podcast when we've spoken about conflict. You can have conflict or you can have tension. You can have neither. So if you don't have conflict in your organization and you know we don't have conflict, then you have tension. You can have neither. So if you don't have conflict in your organization and you know we don't have conflict, then you have a lot of tension that's not being dealt with, and so we're kidding yourself if you don't think you've got absolutely, and so I know.

Kirralea:

When we work in organizations, it's about helping them reframe the way they look at conflict to be around, have these courageous conversations and really and look, this happened separate to me in my work life. This happened in my personal life. I'm part of a cricket club and this happened on the weekend. There was someone that had a really courageous conversation. I had a conversation with one of the leaders and I said you need to talk to them and let them know that was so great, like that was so great what they did and just let them know that we think that's great and we want to see more of that.

Kirralea:

And they went and did that and I said how are they? And they said, oh, just so chuffed, like you could just see, and you know what. They probably had a little bit of doubt after that happened. Did I do the right thing? Was that okay? And now that that conversation's happened and someone said that was really good, that was really brave, that aligns with our culture so well. They want to do it again and they know that they've done it in the right way and they're aligning to the way that the culture wants to be. And that's so important. I think when we see people that have a courageous conversation with someone and align with the culture we're trying to create is to be able to reinforce that to them and say that was really great. I saw you do that. I know that that was really hard, but that was really great and support them through it and let them know that that's the conversations we want to be having.

Simon:

But it's really normalizing those conversations.

Kirralea:

It's not looking at them as good conversations or bad conversations, it's just. These are the courageous conversations we have in our workplace.

Simon:

And Kiralee for those organisations who want to embed courageous conversations in their workplace, whether at all levels, across the team. That is the product that we're featuring this month and there will be a link to that particular page in the show notes so that if people want to know more about having us come in and actually deliver some training to support people to do that, that's there.

Kirralea:

And the name Courageous Conversations just came from. That's what we want people to have. You know they're the conversations we don't want them to be called. You know, good conversations or you know, we just call them courageous conversations, the difficult conversations. That's right. We call them courageous conversations because sometimes people feel uncomfortable and sometimes they have to dig fairly deep into their courage to take a deep breath to do it. But it just gives you some language around normalising that. So, regardless of where you take this from here, think about courageous conversations and what they look like in your organisation.

Simon:

And if you feel you don't need us to come in and do stuff, just use the phrase courageous conversations.

Kirralea:

Yeah, absolutely Use it as a language.

Simon:

It recognises that it is courageous. It rewards them for doing it. There's only two ways. I just want to pick up on something you said before about if you don't have conflict, you've got tension. If you don't have conflict, one of two things is happening You're either settling for tension or you've actually got conflict, but it doesn't look like it because people are handling it so well. Managers, before you start reaching around to pat yourself on the back, there's a 99.9% chance that, to at least some degree, that you've got tension. If you don't feel you've got conflict, some of you may have a lot of conflict that's handled well, some that's not handled well and some tension. You might have a mix of all three. So the first challenge for managers is to make sure you've got conflict, and the second challenge is to then help people handle that well, but that's a topic for another. I think that's a focus for an upcoming month. So yes.

Simon:

Kiralee, can I finish? Or, for my part, can I finish on a few quick tips.

Kirralea:

Absolutely.

Simon:

So tip one speak up and encourage others to speak up. It's your culture, it's their culture. Let them own the culture, because if they own it, they'll take responsibility for it. If you're a team member, you might have to have courageous conversations with your manager about. I want to be able to have these conversations with my colleagues. Will you support me?

Simon:

If you're a manager, first challenge for you is I'm going to ask you what are you modelling? So if you're a manager, do you get involved in gossip? Do you get involved in complaints? Do you get involved in negativity? Because if you do, you've got no right to hold other people accountable around those things. You're undermining your credibility.

Simon:

So the very first thing to do is to make sure you've got your house in order and hold yourself to an incredibly high standard. If you're not accountable to performance, to standards, to values, to the way we treat each other, then you're going to have a lot of trouble having conversations with others. If you already hold yourself to a high standard, then make sure you have high standards for the people around you and mean them. The biggest measure of whether your standards are genuine or not is what happens when someone doesn't meet them. So if you've got a standard around. If you've got the rules of the pool, for example, around the way people treat each other, and someone doesn't do that, what happens? Do we ignore it and hope it goes away? Is it too uncomfortable? Do we bury it? Do we not want to upset that person? Or do we have an honest and accountable discussion?

Simon:

If you're a senior manager, the first thing I would look at is, firstly, what do you model? Because senior managers are not exempt from modeling the wrong things either. So make sure you're modeling the right things. And then the second step is get the managers on board, because if you've got mid-level managers who are not supporting this, then you've got no chance with the front line. So you've got to. Basically, this has to cascade down. This is not a matter of holding the front line accountable and hoping it works its way up. It won't, 100%, it won't.

Simon:

And my fourth tip here, and sort of combined with the fifth one, is it's hard to hold people accountable to a great culture, to an ideal culture, if you don't know what that is, if you haven't sat down and defined what's our perfect culture, what's our ideal culture. Don't be scared of the word perfect. I know you're not going to achieve it. No one ever does, because it's a moving target, but we should at least know what ideal looks like. What does great look like? And now let's start holding people to that, and that can be a conversation. It can be in defining values, which is again a topic for another focus month, something we can help you with or something you can do on your own month, something we can help you with or something you can do on your own. But values are a wonderful way, if you actually mean the values, to start defining your ideal culture.

Simon:

And my last point on this and I'm sorry to rant, but we talked about the rules of the pool and my only trepidation with giving you a resource that says rules of the pool is that values aren't rules, and so rules of the pool is simply we use that phrase simply as a hopefully because of the rhyming bit hopefully, people remember it and it sticks, and that's why it's good for small teams.

Simon:

But rules, even with rules of the pool, think big, don't think oh well, everyone will answer the phone on the third ring. That's what rules can look like. Think a bit more global around. We'll all speak to each other respectfully, and I know that that's hard to people can argue with that. I thought it was respectful, I didn't. That's okay. The problem with rules is you can end up with a million of them and still have gaps. So you want more global, value-based principles that define the way we want to treat each other, the standards we want to work to, the culture we want to have, and that may mean there's got to be some discussions around that. I thought it was respectful, I didn't.

Kirralea:

We need to sit down and talk that through a really popular when we've seen uh clients we've worked with do their own rules of the pool is we will talk to someone, not about them yeah, and that's a really that's a really good one, because then, if, if, if office gossip is something that occurs, that's something where, if you hear that, you can go oh, I'm not sure that this is one of our rules of the pool, or I'm not sure that this is, this is keeping our water clean, or maybe this can maybe feel and and it doesn't have to be really firm and really you know strict language it can be guys, do we think this is peeing in the pool?

Simon:

maybe or do you think?

Kirralea:

that we could be doing a better, a better job at keeping the water clean. It gives people a framework to work from, but it also gives them a language to hold people accountable to what you want to achieve.

Simon:

And we've got to have something. If I go to my colleague and say, look, I didn't think that was okay, that's useful. But if I can go to them and say, hey, can I talk to you about our rules of the pool or around our values or around the culture of all the growth we want to create, I just didn't feel that sat well with that. That's a whole nother level of powerful and a whole nother level of ability to to um, to for people to hold each other accountable, so um. So that's, I guess, what my point there is. If you you've got a team, then the rules of the pool are great and the team next to you might do that as well.

Simon:

I don't think the rules of the pool framework will help organization-wide unless you're that team of 10 or 15 people, then fantastic. But if you're a bigger organization, the rules of the pool process will work within your team. More globally, you probably need something more like values that are not superficial. They've got to be values you mean that you live and that's a whole separate discussion we could spend 10 podcasts on, because we're both very passionate about it Something we can also help you with if that's something that you want to talk to us about.

Kirralea:

Yes, that will be a future theme for the month, so we will get to that.

Simon:

I've really enjoyed potting again. This is awesome.

Kirralea:

Yes, I know we were trying to find time towards the end. Things got so hectic towards the end of the year and it was just so hard to find time and it became something that we just we both we loved doing it, but it was just. We almost dreaded it because there was just no time to find anywhere. But now we've given it some new life, we've given it a new structure and it feels really good, doesn't it Very?

Simon:

good and we're going to try and stick to sort of around that 30-minute mark and hopefully with the editing this will be a few minutes over that, but we're going to try and stick to that. So it's short and sharp each month and we'll hopefully make it entertaining for you so that you know it's not just dreary business talk. Hopefully it's a bit of fun as well.

Kirralea:

A few cringes and eye rolls and listeners will be right back to where they left us in September.

Simon:

We'll see you. We'll talk to you in a month, but in the meantime, access those resources. Check out the show notes. Go to our website. You'll see them all there. We really are committed to creating a lot of value for our listeners, whether that involves you accessing our free stuff or whether that involves you talking to us about working with your teams.

Kirralea:

We look forward to the next month.

Simon:

See you in a month and be authentic.

Kirralea:

Come and see the real thing. Come and see the real thing. Come and see the real thing. Come and see. Come and see the real thing. Come and see the real thing.