The Culture Nerds - A Leadership Podcast

Building a Robust Culture with Kathryn Keenihan from Junction Australia

• Simon Thiessen & Kirralea Walkerden

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Discover how to foster an exceptional workplace culture and drive organizational success with insights from Catherine Keenahan, Executive Manager for People and Culture at Junction Australia. Catherine reveals the secrets behind her organization’s mission to help people thrive, emphasizing the importance of a purpose-driven, values-oriented approach. Listen as she shares personal anecdotes about inspiring leaders who valued individuals and provided clear direction, revealing how authentic leadership can profoundly impact culture. Catherine also provides an insider look at Junction Australia's Culture Shaping Initiative and the pivotal role leadership plays in creating a unified organizational culture.

In this episode, we highlight the essential role of senior and middle managers in nurturing a strong organizational culture. Catherine uses compelling analogies like marriage and nutritional lifestyles to illustrate the long-term commitment needed for cultural transformation, setting it apart from short-term fixes. The conversation touches on the significance of gaining managerial buy-in and equipping them with the tools they need to succeed, especially when involving remote and shift workers. We focus on embedding positive behaviors and expectations into daily operations, ensuring that culture becomes an integral part of business as usual. This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about leadership and organizational culture.

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Speaker 1:

Hey listeners, it's Kiralee here, can you believe? We have been podcasting now for over two and a half years. Over that time, we've had some really fantastic chats with other leaders. Simon has had a rant or two. We've discussed leadership topics that are relevant to the current news. We've had a couple of name changes. Now we even have a podcast producer.

Speaker 1:

Shout out to Josh. Thank you for all that you do for us. But most of all, we have had so much fun bringing you our podcast on a topic that we love culture and leadership so we wanted to mix things up a little. So we have dug deep into the archives of the show to find the best tips, tricks and conversations from the past two and a half years of discussions that we've had around culture and leadership. Essentially, we've gone back and found the gold. So you don't have to. If you listen to any of these bite-sized episodes that are coming up over the next few weeks and you would like the full episode, you can follow along over at reallearningcomau, where you'll find not only the full podcast catalogue but also loads of super helpful blog posts and other resources that every aspiring culture nerd needs. Now we won't hold you up anymore here at the start. Let's jump into the podcast Before we get into today's episode.

Speaker 2:

We want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the Elders, past, present and emerging.

Speaker 3:

Catherine Keenahan is the Executive Manager for People and Culture at Junction Australia. Catherine's role is both strategic and operational and she's responsible for providing a best practice, contemporary HR service and delivering positive outcomes for all team members and supporting the organisation to achieve its strategic objectives. From what we've said earlier in the episode about creating an authentic culture, you'll recognise the overlap with Catherine's perspective. We've been delighted to be invited by Catherine and the rest of the executive at Junction to be part of their journey, and it was obvious to us really early on that a lot of work had already been done, which makes Catherine the perfect person to talk to us about the first steps in shaping culture. Welcome, catherine.

Speaker 2:

Hi, simon Kirli, Thanks.

Speaker 1:

Hi Catherine Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Great to have you on the show. So before we get started and talk about the cultural journey you've been on, tell us a bit about Junction Australia.

Speaker 2:

Sure Simon Junction's a social enterprise providing a range of community support services and quality housing here in Adelaide. We exist to help people not just survive but thrive. We've been around about 40 years and grown significantly over the last 10 years. We now have about 280 staff and our people work in a dynamic and challenging environment.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, lots of different inputs and a lot of different pressures that people work under and I love the aspirational nature of the goals will work under and I love the aspirational nature of the goals. A lot of organisations seem to tick over and get through day by day, whereas the goals of Junction are much more aspirational, aren't they?

Speaker 2:

Yes, we definitely look to that bigger picture, I guess, and it's been a lot of discussion at Exec, particularly around trying to change the focus around working with vulnerable people to actually how we can help people be the best version of themselves.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Fantastic. And look, there's a really common theme when we talk to you about thriving, not surviving, about being best versions, and, as I say that the aspirational nature must be inspiring for people within the organisation as well. So creating exceptional organisational cultures is a passion of yours. I know it's your pet topic and you warned me we'd struggle to keep the episode on time and we're happy to talk as long as we can. Where did that passion come from? What drives that for you personally?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, good question and it's definitely not something new. I think it's a hurdle that was planted by leaders and mentors I've worked with and respected. Seeing leadership working really well and the difference that made and how it impacted on culture was really informative to me and I guess I was really lucky in having those role models to inform how I wanted to work and how I wanted an organisation to be.

Speaker 3:

So, some of those leaders, what sort of things, what sort of messages or lessons did they leave you with?

Speaker 2:

It was probably about the value of the individuals, the respect that was given, but also the clear direction and purpose around actually, you know, achievement. So I think it just created a lot of trust in the relationships and a lot of, you know, sense of true caring.

Speaker 3:

So I found that very powerful. And that comes through in in interactions that we have with Junction, that that that's very evident, that that's part of the journey you're on Now. Kirilla, you had a question you wanted to ask.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Catherine. What do you consider to be the elements of a great culture?

Speaker 2:

I think there has to be that real connection with purpose and I think for us, in the work we do, that's perhaps easier than for some organisations. Yeah, absolutely, we're a really strong values-driven organisation. So again, I think that gives us a really great foundation to build on. As far as culture goes, but then we all know that culture is really hard sometimes to define. We talk about it a lot but it can feel really vague.

Speaker 2:

And so for me it's about sort of understanding culture, what we want that culture to be, and understanding what role that everybody plays in it and that thing, that culture, isn't something that just happens around us. We're in that culture and we contribute to it, whether we know it or not.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic, absolutely so. When you decided to continue in that culture journey that you had begun, what triggered the Culture Shaping Initiative for Junction? Why did that come about?

Speaker 2:

It was probably predominantly a catalyst with the change of CEO about four years ago, but it had been something that board had been talking about for a long time. It wasn't that we felt we had a particularly bad culture. We just thought it could be better. And I think we reflected on, like a lot of organizations, we probably had many subcultures and no clear way of describing what we wanted as a whole no roadmap, if you like.

Speaker 2:

So, as an executive, we were keen to explore and understand what our culture is and what we wanted it to be and how we were going to get there. So we sort of recognized we needed a roadmap and that we needed to commit and be in on the long haul. So yeah, so I think that was um part of that drive. And again going back to, we talk about our desire to see people thrive and that's just not our customers, but we really want that to be true for our people as well.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And so we saw that as being a significant part of it.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. I think the connection's really clear, isn't it? That if people within the members of the organisation are thriving, they're better placed to help the people that they're working with thrive. So there's a natural flow through there, isn't there?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and you know, I'm a firm believer that it's people that deliver outstanding results or, in our case, impacts for our clients, for our customers. So we look after our own people and we have the best environment for them to work in. It just makes sense that we're going to be having a greater impact.

Speaker 1:

It comes back to those elements of authenticity that we were speaking about in an earlier episode, isn't it, Simon?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, and so we talk about the culture isn't really authentic unless it's trying to focus on three outcomes, so the experience of the members of the organization, the team members, the experience of the people using the organization, whether that be as customers or clients or whatever it might be, and the bottom line results. But again, that isn't always financial, that that depends upon the organization. And when an organization focuses on all three, great things happen, whereas when we compromise one of those in the pursuit of the others, inevitably things start to crumble yeah, couldn't agree more yeah, and it's.

Speaker 3:

Look, it's um, one of the reasons that we thought so much of you for this episode is that it just reinforces your journey, reinforces that message so strongly. So as you set about this initiative and I understand it's really just a continuation of a journey that's always been there. But as you set about maybe making the, the culture shaping a little bit more deliberate, what were the first steps? How did you get started?

Speaker 2:

I guess, um, the commitment from board and exec was the really big thing to um be able to embark on the journey, and I guess we saw it as something as being a discovery and learning. So so that commitment and, as I said before, to be in for the long haul, because it's not something that you just do quickly.

Speaker 2:

It's something that you're actually committing to, a bit like a marriage. Maybe You're in there for the long haul, for better or worse, for better or worse at times, yeah, and so we made culture a strategic priority and that gave it, I guess, the credibility to actually invest in.

Speaker 2:

And you know there is a significant financial investment as well. Then we started to look for a model and tools that we could use that were well researched and aligned with our values. We wanted that idea of having consistent language and to be able to align everything we do in our culture, work across all facets of the organisation, so really embed it deeply. So leadership has a part to play in that. Performance, recruitment, all of the elements around our people we wanted to align with our culture. Then we started conversations with our people.

Speaker 3:

And what was their response?

Speaker 2:

I think, a bit of a mixed bag, to be honest. A lot of people excited and a lot of you know, common agreement about, aspirationally, what a good culture looks like, but also I think there's always that oh, here we go again. You know how long are we doing this for? Is it going to actually we're going to stick at it or will it change again? So I think that's been something that we've been really keen to make sure is that people understand this isn't just something that we're doing now, it's something we're committed to for the long term yeah, yeah I.

Speaker 3:

it reminds me of a group I was working with the other day and there's a recognition there needs to be some movement in where the culture's at, and one of the first steps was to get the group of leaders together and have that conversation with them, because without their support it wouldn't work. And as we started this conversation and it was quite a trusting environment, there were a few nerves and so on quite a trusting environment. One person responded by saying oh, it might be time for me to retire. And we let the conversation go a bit and we circled back and said look, tell us about that, what prompted that? And they said look, I'm not really serious, but my first feeling was just being overwhelmed of can I do this?

Speaker 3:

I've done things a certain way for so long and it's been fairly effective, and I know I could be more effective by doing things in a different way. But can I do it? And at the heart of it was that sense of am I able to do it? And so part of the journey with that group and we've now moved past that was helping that group have the confidence and the belief and laying out a pathway so it wasn't as overwhelming and intimidating and once we overcame that hurdle, the buy-in from that person and from the rest of the team was massive. Did you have some people who reacted in that way that? I'm overwhelmed by this?

Speaker 2:

Probably hasn't quite been our experience. Probably we've been very lucky at particularly that executive level, I think probably an unusual amount of commitment and buy-in to it. We've all been very much on the same page about what we've wanted, and so that's definitely made my job a bit easier.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I think when we perhaps go down to that next level. You know our senior managers and middle managers. We recognise how critical they are in this process because often they're the people that are actually working with the people on the front line much more closely than executive is. So, getting that buy-in from them and the engagement with it help them understand that it's something we want them to invest their time giving them permission to value this stuff, because we know everybody gets busy and so it's really easy to, as you said, focus on.

Speaker 2:

You know I've got to get the tasks done and then not. You know I've got to get the tasks done and then not. You know, spend the time that you need in valuing the leadership and the culture. So we've really tried to empower people to realise this is something we're giving you permission to do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, fantastic and give them the space. But you've used the analogy before. It's a bit like a marriage, the analogy that came to mind. For me, it was a bit like listening to someone describe the difference between going on a diet to lose a quick 10 kilograms and then go back to their old habits, versus having a nutritional lifestyle and deciding to live healthily and deciding to live healthily. For me, that's the analogy that came to mind that you're not just on a diet to get a quick result. This is a commitment to a way of living for the organisation. Is that fair?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and you know, personally I hope it's something that's you know that we're committed to for forever. Basically.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

You know, maria, as our CEO has, you know, said in her time here that you know we want a consistent and persistent approach, I guess, to this. So we've picked the tools and the things we want to work with and we're, you know, committed to that and it's not a project that has a finite end.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

You know we're going to tick the box and say, oh, we've done culture. Yes, it doesn't work like that, as you would know. Yeah, this is layer upon layer of how we can keep doing it better, and you know we're not always getting it right, and I think you have to be open and transparent about that and happy to hear that feedback. But I think the commitment to keep trying to get better is, you know, very much there.

Speaker 1:

I think what also just stood out for me, and what you said, catherine, is the commitment to your people as well, and when you said you gave them permission to embrace the shaping of the culture and embrace, you know, the direction that their leadership was taking them. Because it's something that we see both with our clients, but I see in just everyday life where people in leadership roles they are so task driven and they don't have time for the people side of things, like I don't have time to deal with this and I don't have time to deal with that, and you know, oh, it's just too much to all these people issues, but giving your team permission to say we almost forget about this, this is what we're focusing on right now is such a vital part of this journey and the process.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's that also understanding that difference between being a manager just managing things and being a leader. And, as you know, that's some of the work we're doing with you. So I think If you don't give people the tools to do some of these things, you know you're setting them up perhaps to fail, and that's setting the culture up to fail Exactly. So we've recognised that if we want to do this well, part of it is we have to actually invest in developing those capabilities in our people so they can be good leaders.

Speaker 2:

So, that's been an important part of it as well.

Speaker 3:

Have there been barriers along the way? Or has there ever been a time where you've sort of looked in the mirror and thought, oh, are we going to succeed on this?

Speaker 2:

I think I mean there's always some barriers. I don't think, though. From what I understand when I talk to other people, often the biggest barrier is getting that buy-in at the top level.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And for us that's been really strong, so that as I said, makes my job much easier. I'm very confident that I'm surrounded by an exec that's happy to role model. You know, walk the talk, we can challenge each other, so that's been to role model. You know, walk the talk, we can challenge each other, so that's been a positive. I think, as I said before, time's always a challenge. Everybody's busy, and busy is, you know, a really easy way of saying oh, that's too hard, I haven't got time for that.

Speaker 2:

But for me, if we're serious about culture, then it has to become a priority. So we embed the behaviors and expectations and we're trying to make that our business as usual. So it's not something we're doing on top of what we do, it's just something we do as part of what we do, that becomes the norm yeah, it becomes the norm and I guess the other thing I could think about it's it's not necessarily the barrier, but a challenge, and that is getting buy-in from staff particularly.

Speaker 2:

We have a lot of shift workers, people that work remotely off-site and things like that. So making sure that we are involving them and engaging with them and helping them to understand the part they play in the culture. I know, Simon, you talk about the pool analogy and you've got to get into the pool or you're in the pool, whether you like it or not.

Speaker 2:

Yeah absolutely, and so for us, it's that idea, you know, of helping people understand you actually can't sit on the fence. You're actually either going to make a positive difference and going to be part of the solution, or you're going to be, perhaps, you know, not having such a positive impact.

Speaker 3:

That's great and for our listeners, the pool analogy is coming. I think it might be episode.

Speaker 2:

Oh sorry, I stole your thunder. No, no, no.

Speaker 3:

No, not at all. In fact, Catherine, by the time our interview goes to air, they will have just heard the pool analogy in the previous episode. So all is good.

Speaker 2:

So they'll know exactly what you're talking about it's a very practical way of looking at it. I've stolen it and I use it all the time oh no, we love that you use it.

Speaker 1:

That's why, that's why we put it out there. We love that people use it. So, katherine, just on what you just said, we it's such an important part of the process when you take everyone along for the journey with you, and it's so. You see it a lot in big companies and it's really easy to happen in big companies where a culture journey starts and people are told what the journey is rather than taken on the journey. And I think the way you just described it, where you've brought everyone along, not everybody likes it, not everybody accepts it, but everyone's given the opportunity to feel like they're a part of it moving forward. So I think that that's a really important thing that our listeners can take from that. Just finally, catherine, what advice would you give a leader considering a culture shaping process for their own organisation?

Speaker 2:

Sure, I think, number one, you've got to get that commitment, particularly from your exec. You see, your leaders have to be the role models, the champions. Otherwise you're setting it up to fail from the start. If you're trying to drag people to somewhere they don't want to go, that's going to be very hard.

Speaker 3:

It's a lot of weight to pull by yourself, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. I think you've got to be ready and open to feedback If you're honestly going to work on culture. You need to be prepared to look inwards as well, because I think we all have to understand what's my impact on culture and, as I said before, you don't have to get it right all the time, because you won't probably. You know we haven't, but I think and stealing another one of the things you talk about you do need to be authentic about it yes, and I think people are pretty understanding and kind if you can honestly say look, I stuffed, stuffed up or we didn't get it right, yep.

Speaker 2:

And the last bit, probably. I think I mentioned it before too, but it doesn't stop. Culture, for me, is not something you just jump in. As I said, it's not a project with an end date. It needs ongoing work and attention. It has to be nurtured, and the minute you take your eye off it, you're probably going backwards.

Speaker 3:

Great advice, and I think a future episode might be around culture not being a project. I think it's a. I'm going to steal something back and that's what I'm going to do. You're welcome. All right, catherine. Look, it's been an absolute pleasure. I think that is full of gold for our listeners and we're loving working with the organisation, and this is why because this is what we walk into when we're working with Junction so thanks very much for being on the show and looking forward to continuing the journey with you.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, Simon and Kiralee Been a pleasure.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, Catherine.

Speaker 2:

Talk to you. Thanks, simon caroley, been a pleasure. Thanks, katherine. Talk to you soon come and see the real thing.

Speaker 1:

Come and see the real thing. Come and see. Come and see the real thing. Come and see the real thing.