The Culture Nerds - A Leadership Podcast

🗨️ Authentic Conversations: Leadership v Management: Exploring Career Progression & Leadership Obligations

• Simon Thiessen & Kirralea Walkerden

Share episode

We would love your feedback! Send us a text message!

In todays episode we delve into the often overlooked aspect of career progression: leadership obligations and the unconscious journey many individuals embark on when they accept promotions solely for career advancement without fully considering the responsibilities that come with leadership roles.

Drawing from experiences with various senior leaders, we explore how individuals are propelled into leadership positions driven by ambitions for career growth and financial gain. Yet, they shed light on the common scenario where these individuals find themselves ill-prepared for the complexities of managing people and relationships, realising too late the weight of leadership expectations.

Throughout the discussion, we continue to ask the question around the adequacy of organisational processes in preparing individuals for leadership roles. Do organisations do enough to explicitly outline the leadership obligations that accompany promotions? Are there alternative career progression paths that don't necessarily lead to leadership roles?

******************************************************
Want to check out how Authentic your organisation is? Take our free online Authentimeter Assessment tool here

You can find full shownotes for this episode and more here

Visit our website The Real Learning Experience

Follow us on instagram or Linked In

Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au

Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.

Thanks for listening!

Speaker 1:

Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the Elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, welcome to another episode of the Culture Nerds Leadership Podcast. My name is Kira Lee and with me I have my co-host, simon Tyson. Hi, simon.

Speaker 2:

Hello listeners, welcome to another episode of the Culture Nerds.

Speaker 1:

Leadership Podcast.

Speaker 2:

My name is Kiralee and with me I have my co-host, simon Tyson. Hi Simon, hey Kiralee, how are you going? Really good.

Speaker 1:

Excellent. It's a busy day today, isn't it? Last day before Easter and we're Busy day. It's been a busy week. It's been a busy month.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that's Busy year. It is, and I was reading something about that the other day. This is a rabbit hole, but I might go down it about that the other day, and people almost use busy as a badge of honour and I think we've got to be really careful about you. Know, I've been busy. Oh, I've been busier, you know, but it has been bloody busy and it's.

Speaker 1:

I think it's been good, busy, like I think. It's been a little bit hectic at times.

Speaker 2:

It's been good, as in we've achieved a lot. Yeah, because sometimes you're busy and not achieving a lot, but is it good to be busy for that long? There's a philosophical question for us all to ponder over, esther and you know, are our lives just too busy? Do we allow them to become too busy?

Speaker 1:

So yeah, Although the busyness has enabled us to see five states of Australia in about the past three weeks.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and I think I might have seen the other one state and two territories or whatever, but I think I blinked and missed them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's right Now today's podcast topic. Simon, we were talking yesterday when we were in Victoria and you came up with a really good idea for a chat today.

Speaker 2:

It was really I can't take the credit. Look in quick succession, in multiple states we've had three or four groups of people. We've been working with reasonably senior leaders in one or two cases very senior in one or two cases sort of fairly senior. Where the same theme has come up and it really really struck me and we've been talking around leadership and why people lead and what that means for the way they lead and what sort of leader they are and whether they make good leaders or not, and the topic or the conversation conversation has very quickly gone to.

Speaker 2:

People often take on a role, a promotion, because it's a promotion, because it means they're progressing their career, it means that they're potentially making more money without any conscious thought or with very little conscious thought about gee.

Speaker 2:

With this comes the obligation for leadership and I think it raises some really interesting questions for organisations, because we end up with people and this is sort of a, this is a variation on a theme we've spoken about a number of times.

Speaker 2:

Obviously we end up with people in leadership roles who shouldn't be in leadership roles because it's not what they're driven to do, they don't have the right motivations, they're not excited by that, they're there for the wrong reasons and sometimes that's because they're the person that's been with the organisation the longest, or the one that's best at the technical task, and we call that the longest or strongest. That's best at the technical task and we call that the longest or strongest. But this is slightly different. This is people who genuinely have ambition to get ahead, to progress, to increase their income, because a lot of people want to do that, Most people want to do that, and the only legitimate step for them to do that is to move into this new role, which comes with a whole bunch of obligations that they may not have considered in that process and which I don't think organisations always make explicit enough in that process.

Speaker 1:

And I've had not just recently but in previous years working with clients have had discussions where you have a leader that's taken on a promotion and is now realizing that managing people and their relationships are a huge part of it, and when you ask them the question, well, why did you take on the role? Their answer is, well, it was the next step, it was the only option I had to progress my career, and so it's almost like the mindset is well, this is what I do, I just need to do that and exactly what you said before. What comes with that and the responsibilities and the additional leadership or the leadership that you might not have had before, all the higher levels of expectation of what your leadership capabilities will be just is not even a thought, because inside their head it's just this is the next step, and that is very common in some organisations, that that is the mindset, that well, you go from here and then you go to here, and then you go to here and then you go to here.

Speaker 2:

That's it and we can't blame people. No, that's right, Because, as I say, they want to progress their career, they want to make more money, they want to get ahead and look. I think it comes down to two things that I think organisations and more senior managers need to do. One is I think we should dive into each of these separately, but one of them is that they should be more explicit in the conversation when they're going through the process, and we'll come back to that. The second is is our system broken? Should people have opportunities to progress without taking on leadership? But should we park that one and come back to that first one, which is around the explicit conversation?

Speaker 1:

yeah, and look, I think organizations are getting better because when I look at position descriptions and and things like that, they there are organizations that are starting to have just as much focus on the leadership aspects. But I feel like sometimes, when you're dealing with people that are in a career that is very technically driven, that that's where those leadership expectations and the equal weighting of how important leadership is when you take on those roles sometimes get forgotten about because they are so technically capable of what they do that it's almost like that's an afterthought.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, look, it's especially dangerous with internal candidates.

Speaker 2:

Yeah so with internal candidates, we look at them through a different filter. We've got no preconceptions about their style. We've got no preconceptions about their style. We've got no preconceptions about their ability. We're basing all of that on something that they've given us a resume, an application and potentially some checking, and obviously in an interview we sort of try and get a feel for all of that stuff. But with internal applicants it's almost like they have an expectation. I've been here a long time, I've done this thing, I've supported that. Therefore I should.

Speaker 1:

I'm the next in line.

Speaker 2:

I'm the next in line, you know. You know that person's been here for a year and I've been here for seven years or I've done this job at this level, and I don't think organisations, particularly with internal candidates, are explicit enough in saying that's great. And I think they've got to look it in the eye and say we respect the fact that you're driven to move your career forward and we respect the fact that there's a financial incentive and we are financially incentivizing people to take on jobs that they're not cut out for. That's the reality. So we're going to look that in the eye and say we know there's a financial incentive to take this role on. We know there's a career progression reason to take this role on. But let's have a talk about the stuff that comes with that, and it's not just stuff that oh okay, I need to do some of that leadership stuff now.

Speaker 2:

In taking on this role, you are expressly accepting the responsibility for leading people, and this is what that looks like and spell that stuff out. It means talking to people about performance issues. It means going out of your way to acknowledge and appreciate people for good work. It means getting involved with all those messy team dynamics that we don't like, because a lot of people don't like conflict. It means having really clear expectations. It means devoting time to developing people, not just giving out orders and allocating tasks giving out orders and allocating tasks. It means stopping doing stuff and going to help others do stuff better, make sure they're equipped to do that. So have that explicit conversation and then be saying so, tell me how you're feeling about it now.

Speaker 2:

So, now that it comes, now that we've been really, really explicit that this is part of the obligation that you're taking on, you're still keen? And if you are, then that's brilliant. Let's continue this conversation. But if you're having second thoughts right now, that's okay. Go away and think about it. And if your second thoughts are related to your confidence and experience in doing those things, then we'll support you to gain that, because no one goes into a leadership role the first leadership role having practised those things extensively. So we'll support you. But if your reservations are now related to do I want to do that stuff, then that's a much more serious question. And if you've still got those after some thought, then you're not a suitable candidate.

Speaker 2:

And I think what that then does when people because sometimes, let's be honest, sometimes people will say, yeah, I'm happy with the people stuff because they want the promotion and they want the pay rise. If we're explicit up front, we can then hold them accountable to that. And this is not about having a punitive sort of workplace, but we can say, hey, look, you're doing really well in this aspect of it. You remember that leadership stuff we talked about before you took the role on and we were really really explicit about what it would involve. You don't seem to be giving that as much focus as we would like.

Speaker 2:

Talk to me about that. And when they're saying, oh, it's not really my thing, you can be saying but we were explicit about this upfront. And if you want to stay in this role or, yeah, I know I'm really keen to do it, but I'm struggling confidence or skill-wise, fantastic, let's help you acquire those things. But I think we set it up. It's that having that really clear set of expectations up front, really clear conversation up front, and then we can hold leaders accountable to it.

Speaker 1:

And what is sometimes challenging in those instances up front, and then we can hold leaders accountable to it. And what is sometimes challenging in those instances is in a very technical-driven environment we don't always have leaders that set those expectations, do we?

Speaker 2:

Well, we sometimes have more senior leaders who don't value those leadership aspects themselves.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And, in other words, we've just got a bunch of managers rather than any leaders. And we know, when we see that, how organisations suffer. We know that you know they're functional but not particularly inspiring places to work. They get adequate but not exceptional performance. People come to work because they're paid but not because it gives them anything else. They drift off to other workplaces because you know other workplaces offer more money and when you're competing on money and that's all you're competing on, then you're in trouble. So we know that those workplaces exist, but we also know how, how limited they become.

Speaker 2:

So I've been really inspired, I have to say, over the last few days and and we've worked with a particular client over the last few days I've been really inspired to hear a bunch of very technical people who come from a very technical background and and from a very management mindset, and to see their journey and to hear them talk about a lot of people at senior level talking about leadership and naming it up and not just using the badge, the word leadership, but talking about the underlying elements of it and valuing that stuff. It's always exciting when you see that transition in an organisation. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

It's in exciting when you see that transition in an organisation. Yeah, absolutely, it's almost like that. Yeah, that's right, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

When you see leadership get into their DNA, you know things are going to move, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And when they start to get reward for making those changes and they can see the benefits they're getting from really placing just as much emphasis on the leadership side of things and those leadership layers we talk about the leadership layers that people put over their everyday actions and when they start to see the reward from really holding people accountable to those leadership layers, that's what I love seeing.

Speaker 2:

Well. As one of our clients says, the better I lead, the less management I need, and I love that quote. I love that phrase because if I'm leading really well, I don't need to be. I was actually reading one of our old blogs today. Kiralee and we talked about systems of control, and management is a system of control. I know the business is operating well because I've got this system of control, and the system of control is keeping an eye on everything and having really tight boundaries and all that sort of stuff. Leadership's another system of control, but it operates very differently. In leadership, I'm controlling an organisation getting the right outcome because I'm leading well and people are therefore growing. They know what's expected, they know what to do, they're empowered to do it, they're motivated to do it. It's just another system of control, but it's a much more sustainable one than management. So, as I say, I love that phrase, the better I lead, the less management I need, because people just don't need that tight control when we've got strong leadership.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. On Tuesday I was working with one of our clients in South Australia and they put the majority probably 95% of the people in the cohort that we're working with did our Emerging Leaders Program last year and now they're going through to doing our Authentic Leadership Program. A long enough version yeah.

Speaker 1:

And Tuesday's workshop was on leadership essentials and it was very much this topic, talking about the differences between management and leadership, and because in our Emer emerging leaders they had done some of that foundational work, we spoke a lot about what changes they've been able to make in their roles. A lot of them are new and emerging leaders, so very new to leadership, and so we spent a lot of time reflecting on what we'd learned last year between you know the difference between management and leadership and how we put those leadership layers and what they've changed since last year and the difference it's making and the wins that they're seeing and the development that they're seeing in their team. And it was amazing to hear some of their stories that what was last year really challenging for them because they were, it was almost. They had to remind themselves that these are the things that I want to do and now it's just part of their everyday fabric. It's just that is the way they lead and they constantly see the benefits from choosing those leadership layers over those management tasks, because the management tasks absolutely have to be done, but they're putting those leadership layers over the top and they're seeing the value in doing that and they're seeing the growth that not only the growth that they've reflected on for themselves, but they're seeing the way that it's being embraced by their team.

Speaker 1:

They've got team members stepping up. They've got team members that are taking on promotions. They've got team members that have been really capable of taking on more responsibility. I've got team members that have been really capable of taking on more responsibility and they can sit there and know that it's they made that decision to take what we had we'd worked on in the workshop and implement that and worked hard at it. And now they're just reaping the rewards and hearing their stories that just and for us, like we can go in and we can work with people and once we walk away, maybe they'll do it, maybe they won't, maybe they'll they'll walk away, maybe they'll do it, maybe they won't, maybe they'll see the benefit of it, but we really don't have any control over what they do when they get back to the workplace To know that these people have worked so hard and can see the benefit. And now it's not things they have to remind each other, it's just who they are. This is who they are.

Speaker 2:

as a leader, I was like this is so good.

Speaker 2:

And I think you're responsible for taking us down that rabbit hole, but it is. It's not having to say, well, I lead or manage, it's putting the leadership layer on top of the management function that makes that difference and that's why we have to be explicit with people coming into those roles. So we've talked about number one, which is being really explicit, particularly with internal candidates. This is not just about stepping up to another income level or progressing the career. It comes with an explicit obligation. So here's a thought and this leads me into the second one that we parked what if you've got someone who says, actually, you're right, I don't want to deal with that stuff.

Speaker 2:

That's not the person I want to be, or that's not the person I am. That's not how I want to spend my time. I love this task, I do, I love this process, I work in, I love the technical field, but where does that leave me? I can't progress, I can't make more money, I can't progress my career because I'm not taking on leadership. Where does that leave me? Do organisations either have an obligation and I sort of tend to think no, but would they be smart and I tend to think yes to create pathways for people to progress without taking on leadership.

Speaker 1:

If you had have asked me this two years ago, I would have said yes. No, I think that there's an obligation for people to accept that as they move higher and accept those promotions that with that naturally comes leadership.

Speaker 2:

But now.

Speaker 1:

But now and I will drop a link to this episode below but you had a when you were in America.

Speaker 2:

two years, years 18 months ago.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, san fran, about 18 months ago, you, we did a pod.

Speaker 1:

Well, you did a podcast with your son, nick well, I did a series of three, didn't I with it in the silicon valley but this particular one was with your son, nick, where he described a setup that they have, uh, and it's very common in san fran, in the silicon valley, especially for because they have a lot of um, it, development and and and that in there, um, they have that pathway where if you are technically driven and that's just the way you want to progress and and you don't want to have to lead any people or manage teams, you just wholly and solely about the technical side of things, then there's a pathway for you to progress. But if you get to a certain point and go, you know what? Yeah, I'm really ready for the challenge of leadership.

Speaker 1:

It's a right turn you can take over and begin that pathway and it was fascinating to hear about. It was fascinating to hear not only how it is set up but how well it works.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and is the price of keeping your best technical performer that you've got to put up with poor leadership from them? Because aren't you taking a really strong technical performer and making them a poor leader and therefore losing the value they bring, and is the only, and therefore losing the value they bring and is the only other alternative, losing them because they go somewhere else. There's got to be a different way, doesn't there?

Speaker 1:

but I also wonder that works so well in that industry? I don't.

Speaker 2:

Would it work well in all industries, because well, we do have industries in Australia where you can get ahead without being promoted. So, for example, a teacher, after a certain amount of time they will go up a level and I'm not good with the technical language here but they'll go up a level in the award, which doesn't necessarily equate to a promotion. The same will happen in childcare Now an industry that's dramatically underpaid. But in childcare if a child carer after 12 months demonstrates they've met certain criteria and they've served that 12 months and they've done certain things within it, then they go up a level. But it doesn't mean they go into a management position. And look, one of our clients the other day told us about a similar arrangement in mining. Now, I don't know how widespread that is in mining, but certainly in a mining company that I'd worked in it was there that they had a pathway that was around the technical skill and a pathway that was around the leadership aspect. And in the language and for those listeners who haven't heard the episode where I interviewed my son, nick, he's a senior manager at an IT company software company in the Silicon Valley called Discord and essentially you get to a point where you make a choice. You're a project manager, so you manage the project, the task, but not necessarily the people, or you're a people manager and you sort of move up that pathway. So it's possible to progress based upon the area that you're going to bring value to. Now I think in the Silicon Valley.

Speaker 2:

I think I'm right in saying that if you go down people management pathways, you probably can progress further, and I think that's probably a good thing, because it's a skill that's rarer to be a really exceptional leader not because people can't do it, because not many people dedicate themselves to really being the best leader they can be.

Speaker 2:

A smaller percentage of people do. So you can progress further, but you can still progress on a technical pathway and you don't lose a really good person. And I'll bet there's people, organizations out there that have got people that are really good technical performers. That would be a bloody nightmare, that would would be a disaster in leadership. But they'll go oh, let's stick them in a management position, otherwise they'll look around and then they lose some of the value that they were bringing, they create some damage and ultimately they're probably going to lose that person anyway because they're a fish out of water. Now that person might have been happy with taking on leadership if it had been explicit, and I think that goes back to point one, but I do. I think organisations, I challenge organisations to think about how can you offer a pathway that doesn't take unsuitable people and put them in leadership roles but also helps you progress people who want to progress technically but maybe not in other areas.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and if any of our listeners have that pathway, we would love to hear about it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. We'd love to hear about it and talk about them in the next episode, whether by name or not, but we'd love to hear how you deal with that challenge.

Speaker 1:

Well, we've been able to keep this short and sharp and to the point who are we? I thought you were able to keep this short and sharp and to the point who?

Speaker 2:

are we? I thought you were going to call me short and sweet, but I was going to say I'm not that short. We have Good discussion, though it really fascinated me when we heard so many organisations talking about this in such a short space of time, and maybe it's where we sort of maybe the questions we posed took them there, but they had some really good insights. Absolutely. Thank you, kiralee and just uh, while before we wrap up, don't forget to get on our website. Look at some of the things we offer for our community, many of them free. So under the events tab on our website, uh, there is the Plenty in 20, which is a free series of 20-minute webinars, now on demand, so you don't have to be online at a certain time and you'll have access to the full 12 months. They're free, they're punchy even punchier than today was and on really hot topics for leaders. And, of course, there's some other great events there. There's our online authentic leadership program and a few other things that listeners might be interested in for others themselves or their teams.

Speaker 1:

Sounds good.

Speaker 2:

See you next episode. In the meantime, stay authentic.

Speaker 1:

Thank you.