The Culture Nerds - A Leadership Podcast

🗨️ Authentic Conversations: The Bookends of High Performance

• Simon Thiessen & Kirralea Walkerden

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If we want high performance from team members, we have to set them up for success.

There are two critical things that you, as the leader, can provide make that high performance significantly more likely. They are both free and abundantly available to leaders. 

Both of these ingredients - the bookends of high performance - are misread by most leaders. They believe they are providing much more of them than their teams believe they receive - and that is flowing through to performance and engagement.

What are these mystery ingredients? Surely some sparkling new concept or revolutionary new leadership theory? 

Nope. Clarity and feedback. What is missing isn't leaders knowing about these concepts - it's being able to apply them, regularly, in busy workplaces.

Listen in to hear what clarity and feedback look like when done exceptionally - and for strategies to make them part of your leadership routine.

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Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.

Thanks for listening!

Speaker 1:

Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, welcome to the Culture Nerds a leadership podcast. My name is Kira Lee and I have with me my co-host, simon. Hello, simon.

Speaker 2:

Hello Kira Lee, good to be here, good to be doing another episode.

Speaker 1:

It is On a Sunday afternoon. We're trying to get this done before a busy couple of weeks start ahead.

Speaker 2:

Very busy couple of weeks. I'm on a flight first thing tomorrow to parts, tropical parts of Australia. They're much more tropical than where I am right now, so looking forward to that. And we're squeezing this in before the critical 5pm on Sunday afternoon when I know that gin and tonics going to leap out of a bottle.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so, simon. We had a chat about a good topic for this week's podcast, and we were chatting a week or so ago about a phrase that we use a lot when we're working with clients. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's one that and I think what prompted this was that we were doing a session with a client together and it's a phrase that I've used a lot, and you looked at me and said we need to do a podcast about that and the phrase is all about the golden bookends of high performance. Now, I don't know why they're golden. It was just when I first thought of this thing. I called them the golden bookends. They can be the platinum bookends, if you like, but we often challenge clients. We say to them what are those golden bookends of high performance, do you think?

Speaker 2:

And they throw all of these other things at us, all of these other ideas, and they're all really important things, but inevitably they're things that sit in between the bookends and they talk about appreciating team members.

Speaker 2:

They talk about giving them challenging work and making the work rewarding and all that sort of stuff. They talk about building rapport with people, a whole bunch of things. They even talk about some accountability, which is fantastic, but they're not the bookends, and the bookends are the things that sit at the beginning and the end of that performance, and if we do these two things, then everything else in between tends to fall into place. And the two things and having given it that massive build up, I'm really sorry. This is because this is going to be a massive disappointment to you, because they're so ordinary but they're so massively overlooked and, in addition to being vitally important. There's another thing these two things have in common, and I'll circle back to that in a minute, but the two things are simply clarity and feedback and no doubt, kiralee, I'm sure that you're going to make sure we dive into both of those in a bit more detail.

Speaker 2:

But it's as simple as that clarity and feedback.

Speaker 1:

It is and when I use that a lot when I'm coaching leaders and when I'm working with leaders one on one, to say you know, if you can give your team members absolute clarity and we'll talk a little about some examples of what that looks like and then give them lots of feedback along the way, you end up where you need to be in that high performance, because people are really clear on what that expectation is, People are really clear on what they need to do and people are getting feedback along the way of what's working and what's not working and where things need to change.

Speaker 1:

And it's just that movement towards high performance and all you do is gather momentum and if you keep on doing that, teams just go from strength to strength and the leaders that do that, the other ones that come back and say I can't believe how much easy this makes my job, and they actually can't believe how easy it is. Now I'm not going to say that giving the feedback is easy, because sometimes that is hard for people to lean into, because sometimes we're giving feedback that makes people feel uncomfortable and can be awkward at times, but when we can normalize that and we'll talk a little bit more about what that looks like. But when we can normalize that, the momentum that is gathered for leaders in leading their teams and the teams and the high performance that they achieve together is amazing.

Speaker 2:

And look before we dive deeper into what those two things look like, because they sort of we can just throw those words out there and leaders out there will nod and go, yep, got to provide more clarity, but what does it actually mean? What does it look like when I'm actually doing that? But before we do that, the other thing I mentioned I've got in common and then a little bit of additional context. So the other thing they've got in common is leaders significantly overestimate both of them, and what I mean by that. Whenever we talk to team members and talk to leaders, the leaders always believe that their teams and their people are more clear than they actually are and they believe that they're giving more feedback than their team members believe they're receiving. Now, who's right Doesn't matter. If that's where our head goes, we've got it wrong. What really matters is the perception of the people that we're expecting to perform. Is that they're not getting enough of either of those things. And that takes me to the broader context which is around the leadership chain. So let's just work backwards. And there's a lot of research to support the various connections in this leadership chain and I'm going to throw a few numbers out there. But let's work backwards If I want people to produce better results.

Speaker 2:

So outcomes and listeners if you've got a pen in front of you, just jot these as dot points and I'm going to give them to you in reverse. So the first is results. That's what I want from my team. I'm leading a team, I'm leading these individuals and I want to get results. Now I don't need to persuade you too much. I don't need to try too hard to persuade our listeners that the harder people try, the better the results will be, assuming they've got the skills they need. So trying harder doesn't work if I don't have the skills and the knowledge that I need, but assuming I've got that, then the harder I try, the better the results I get. This makes intuitive sense. So that's what we call discretionary effort. People might make a certain amount of effort because they have to, because they don't want negative consequences, but beyond that, the effort they make is discretionary. They make it because they want to or they don't make it because they don't feel inspired to.

Speaker 2:

So second dot point is effort or discretionary effort. If people make more discretionary effort, results have to improve. Makes intuitive sense. Let's go back one step from there and a lot of research shows that the amount of discretionary effort that people make is based upon the climate they work in. So if they work in and climate, by the way, is a subset of the broader culture it's what it feels like to work here and if the climate is conducive, people make more effort and therefore get better results. So now we have three dot points Now working up the page. We've got results discretionary effort and climate.

Speaker 2:

Now, before I get into the final dot point, the two biggest elements of climate that people respond to in a motivated way that involves making a lot of effort, are how much clarity they have and how much feedback and recognition they get by far the two biggest things. So in various models there's a psychometric we use that measures leadership styles and workplace climate and in that model of the six elements of the climate that people respond to clarity and feedback, other headline acts let's go back one further step and then I'm going to work back down the zone. The final step is leadership style and all the research shows that by far the biggest factor in determining the working climate for any individual is the leadership style they're exposed to from their direct supervisor. So if the direct supervisor has a leadership style. Let's go through those four dot points now. If the leadership style of the direct supervisor has a leadership style that creates a conducive climate, people are inspired to make more effort, discretionary effort and therefore results improve. There's a really clear chain that goes from one of those things to the next and joins all four.

Speaker 2:

Now here's the kicker Simply changing leadership style can improve the climate by up to 70%.

Speaker 2:

It can also make the climate worse by up to 70% and I've seen this in organizations where someone's had a really conducive leadership style.

Speaker 2:

They've moved on to a different role. The leader who's come in has got a different style and then they look at the people they inherit and go what's wrong with them Not understanding that they've changed the climate dramatically and for the worse and now people are responding differently. So up to 70% impact from the leadership style on the climate, and the climate can impact the bottom line results via effort by up to 30%. So there's a massive ability to simply change my leadership style and, as part of that, build in more clarity for people through my leadership style and more feedback through my leadership style and flow that right through to bottom line results to tangible results, whether they're financial or on some other metric that's important to the organization. So that's the context we're talking in here, and I know we haven't dived yet into what the two look like, and we will. What I wanted to do before we did that was have our listeners really get to the point where they accept that. I can't underestimate the importance of those two things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So now that our listeners understand the relationship that it has and the importance of it, what does more clarity look like? What does good clarity look like when we start giving it to our team members?

Speaker 2:

Well, I'm going to circle back in a second and ask you as well, because you've got some great perspectives on this, but I'll leave this one out, if you like. Do you know what this starts? And I know I'm going down a slight rabbit hole here. I know I'm not directly answering the question, but I promise I will.

Speaker 1:

That's unlike you to do this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know if I didn't take a tangent or two, we'd get listener complaints. Before I talk about what clarity is, I think we've got to start with a fundamental belief system that leaders have or need to have, and that's that the vast majority of people come to work wanting to do a good job, if they know what good looks like. Now, if you're listening to this podcast and you don't believe that, I want you to stop listening just for a moment. Pause, pull over to the side of the road. If you're in a leadership position and you believe the vast majority of people come to work hoping to get away with doing as little as possible, I want you to pull over and I want you to open seek and I want you to start looking for another job because you shouldn't be a leader. It's not for you, it's harsh, but it's the truth. If that's the approach we take to leadership, we'll take leadership styles that lead to non-conjusive climates, which lead to people not making discretionary effort, which, in our mind, perpetuates the beliefs we've got. So we have to start with the premise that the vast majority of people come to work wanting to do a good job. The gap for them is often what does good look like.

Speaker 2:

So one of my favorite descriptions of clarity is not technical, it's not convoluted highfalutin language and so on. For me, clarity means that people get out of their car in the morning and walk into the building knowing what good looks like. Simple as that. They start the day, they start the week, they start the month, they start the year, they start their career. Whatever the period is, they start it, they start the project knowing what good looks like. And they know what good looks like because their leader has spent the time to articulate that. They've spent the time to take it out of their heads and help their team member understand what that looks like. I believe once people know that, basically we're saying there's the goalposts right there and we'll make sure they can see them.

Speaker 2:

I believe that the vast majority of people then will want to do good work.

Speaker 1:

What do you think it is our responsibility as leaders to help them be really clear and understand what good looks like, and anybody that has worked with me in an emerging leaders program or in a coaching program where we've done some goal setting I am painful when it comes to the goal setting process for the people I work with.

Speaker 1:

Who told you that I know I am. I absolutely know I am, because my goal is that they have absolute clarity when they are setting their goals. They need absolute clarity about what is my goal. What does that mean when I achieve it? What does that look like? What are the things that I'll be doing saying, thinking and deciding differently to what I do now? What are the things that I won't be doing? What are the things that might getting the way of me doing, saying, thinking and deciding things differently to be able to do this? What am I gonna do when those things start getting in the way? Who am I gonna need to rely on? Who am I gonna need? I'm very painful. You're looking at me and I'm going see. This is the painfulness that I.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I went worried.

Speaker 1:

No, but this is how you and you start off and your goal might be. I want to have more honest, open discussions with my team members and I wanna really normalize feedback. I feel uncomfortable sometimes delivering what can be perceived as negative feedback. So that is so important to know how. Because when you understand, when you have clarity about what that goal looks like, you're so clear on the steps. Because when you answer those questions, you almost develop your roadmap of what I need to stop doing, what I need to start doing when I hit a bump in the road, what needs to happen. And so when you start putting in these actions and strategies, you are moving towards high performance. And if you're working with me as your coach, I'm giving you feedback. We involve your manager, we involve team members, you're seeking feedback from them and you can't help but move towards achieving that goal, working in a way of more high performance. Because you're so clear when you start off with, you have so much clarity around what good looks like, what do I not need to do? And so I'm not saying to the leaders out there that we need to ask. You can absolutely ask those questions, but that's what clarity is. People need to walk away going. I understand what that means. I know what good looks like in Kiraleigh's eyes, so I can now go away and work towards that.

Speaker 1:

It's when we have our team members walking away, scratching their head, going, oh I've got no idea. And then they deliver a project or they complete a task and we are sitting here as leaders scratching and going. What would make you think that's the level I wanted it completed at? Or what would make you think that that's the standard that we need and that's where our listeners want to. We say what is the failure of leadership in him when we don't get the outcome that we need? That is a failure of leadership because we haven't been able to give them enough clarity. And so if we can know what that looks like and spend the time doing that and it is investment of time it does mean that we have to spend more time with people when we're setting up front, but we save a bunch along the way, absolutely, and we save a lot of doing and froing when things aren't the way, because if we have that absolute clarity at the start and then have that feedback along the way, we should always be improving and learning from the process. Caroli.

Speaker 2:

I'm just gonna briefly touch on some of the reasons that people don't have clarity, and the number one is that the manager makes the assumption that it's clearing their head. Therefore, it's clearing their team's head Absolutely. For them it's obvious, but it may not be for the team member. There's a great video that one of our client centers about a guy buttering bread with and peanut butter under the structure yes, we will link that in the show.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a perfect example of how someone can say something and someone else can hear it completely differently. That is happening to you right now, leaders. That's happening in your people's minds. You say it. There's a great saying about, and I can't remember which it was. One of those famous authors said one of the biggest problems with communication is the misconception that it's happened. And for me that's a lot around clarity. Now the other reason so don't.

Speaker 1:

What looks good like, what is good for me, is not good for you. Everybody has different levels of what that is, so the communication element of that becomes so important, so that we have a benchmark for what good looks like.

Speaker 2:

Looks like yeah and look. There's some other reasons that clarity doesn't land and I would say the first one is that around that assumption that believing it's clear in my mind, it's clear in their mind you need to go back and keep checking in. You need to have two-way conversations, not one where you just go here's the clarity but where you have a conversation, they have a chance to ask questions, because those questions will tell you whether they're on track. But the other one is inconsistency. That's the other big gap in clarity that managers aren't consistent in their expectations. And managers you might be feeling out-raised at this moment, thinking, no, of course I am, I always say the same thing. I'm going to challenge you on that, because what we find is that managers thinking evolves and the way they communicate with their team evolves and they may not have had that explicit conversation. That's confusing.

Speaker 2:

But here's the biggest inconsistency. It's the inconsistency between what we say and what we do. So we say clarity, we have values in this workplace and we all work according to them, and then people see reality. Oh, those people aren't working to those values. We say we accept nothing but excellence, but we're people underperform and no one says anything. Or we say that everyone should treat each other with respect, but sometimes, actually, even my manager loses their call a bit and doesn't always treat me with respect. The gap between what we say and what we do clouds clarity more than anything else, except that first one I talked about, which was assumptions. Happy to move on to feedback, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. So what does feedback look like?

Speaker 2:

Well, those who've seen our Plenty in 20, I just recorded this the other day for our on-demand Plenty in 20, it's free, by the way. So if you haven't gone onto our website and signed up for the Plenty in 20 series, it's free, by the way.

Speaker 1:

And guess what, simon? You don't actually know about this, but that one you just recorded is about to be bumped to March, and so our listeners will be able to register for Plenty in 20 and benefit from the feedback webinar that you have recorded. I've been promoted to March. Yeah, we've bumped it up to March, so that works in well with this episode with. If people are wondering, you know what's some of the things that we're doing right now?

Speaker 2:

we're going to be doing a lot of work and it's just a great webinar on delivering feedback. Yeah, it's really fun to deliver and it's sitting there. Well, we'll be in March on demand, along with one every month, including the two that are already there for 2024. So in the show notes we'll make sure there's a link so you can just go there. It's free. I think probably in that Plenty, in 20 webinar, the most important point we make and there's a lot of feedback but the most important point we make is we have to normalize feedback rather than making it something that's occasional, something that we do with. I'm going to write something. Oh, I saw someone do something. I'll write that down for their performance review. No, no, no, no, no. If it's important, whether it's something they've done well or something that they need to improve, tell them now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, real time feedback. I had that written down here on my notes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I like that real time feedback and pick up on that in a moment, if you will. It's I call for me that. The key here is the microfeedback. It's a constant stream of little bits of feedback, to the point that we're now just two sherman beings talking about work, rather than a manager giving a team member feedback. So it's that constant.

Speaker 2:

You know, I'm up from my desk, I'm wandering around, I'm saying, oh, clearly, I saw what you did there. That's great. I think that works really well. This is why I like it. Or hey, show me what you did there. I wonder if we could try it this way. Or have you thought about this? And it's this constant micro dosing of feedback because it constantly helps people make fine churning calibrations. Now, you know what, if we've given clarity and real clarity, they're already getting more feedback from themselves, because having clarity means they can constantly compare how they're going to that. So they're already getting more feedback through that mechanism and with the micro dosing of feedback in real time, as you say, then we're closing the other end of the bookends. Yeah, tell me about. Is that what you had in your mind when you were thinking about real time?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I just cannot emphasize enough how important feedback on the go, when it happens, like how effective it is and real time feedback works best when we have been able to normalize feedback and when people don't see the manager or whoever it may be walking around and think, oh no, something's, you know, something's gone wrong.

Speaker 1:

They're never out here. They're only ever out here when they've got something. You know I'm in trouble, or something like that. Yeah, that's right. And the biggest tip I have for people when I want to normalize feedback is I ask them how often do you welcome feedback? Because the best way we can normalize feedback and the best way that we can create an environment where people welcome feedback is by us as leaders, modeling and welcoming feedback, and I love leaders that will lead a performance review with. Tell me how I've gone, tell me what feedback you've got for me as a leader, tell me what I could have, what did I do that really helped you in your role and what could I do better to help you move ahead, grow, learn new tasks, learn new skills. I just think, when you open up the forum welcoming feedback and accept it in a way that's really welcoming, that provides so much safety for your team members to then know it's okay, we're going to normalize feedback. We no longer have bad discussions, good discussions. You know, we just have discussions.

Speaker 1:

I was talking to a leader last week that said to me I'm really frustrated at the moment because I feel like I'm managing and not leading. And I said talk to me about what that is. What does that look like? And he said I'm stuck in this office and I can't be out there talking with my people, asking them what I can do for them, giving them feedback when I see things going on. That's the way I want to lead them and I'm not able to do that. And I thought oh, how good is that to hear that? You know, you want to be out there, you want to be helping people, you want to be giving them feedback, you want to be talking to them about their role, you want to be getting some feedback from them about how you're going and what you can do better.

Speaker 1:

And that is normalizing feedback. That is welcoming feedback and that is real time feedback is being able to be out around with your team, not locked away in an office, so that when you see things that are really great, you can give that feedback there and then on the spot and like I couldn't agree more with your micro moments culture, your workplace culture, is made up of all the micro moments. You know, when you see someone that there's an empty box in the stationary cupboard, stationary room or warehouse or wherever store room or wherever you may work, and you see someone that it is not their job but they come past and pick that up because they can see it's on the ground. We don't need that on the ground and we take it somewhere. That's a micro choice.

Speaker 1:

You know, when you see someone having you see one of your team members isn't having a great day and another team member goes out of their way to check in on them and they're okay, that's a micro choice. You know that's opportunities for real time feedback. Hey, I saw what you did this morning with Simon and checked in on him. Gee, that was so in line with our values. Or you know that was so great to see you taking on that role and checking in on them, those micro doses of feedback. And so then, when you have to have that conversation with, which might be about a less than desirable behavior or a less than desirable occurrence, it's not just. All I ever get is told when I do something wrong, you've got all these micro doses of all these, you know things that have been going on and it just, it just becomes feedback and it becomes conversations.

Speaker 2:

Kiran Lee, can I wrap this episode up with a stretch goal on a pro tip?

Speaker 1:

Go ahead.

Speaker 2:

I was sitting with my son the other day and he was watching a YouTube video on some sort of game you play and they gave a pro tip and I thought I can carry that off.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to use that and see how it lands.

Speaker 2:

I can carry that off.

Speaker 1:

I thought would you like some feedback on that that's.

Speaker 2:

That's where the name culture nerds comes in. So let's start with a stretch goal. Stretch goal Don't just normalize feedback from you as a leader. Try and normalize feedback amongst team members, because what we see so often is this reaction of oh, it's not my job, I don't think they should do it that way, but it's not my job to tell them. Or you're not my boss, don't tell me what to do. If people are on the same team, they have every right to give each other feedback, and what we have to do is normalize that as well. So that's normalize receiving feedback from your team.

Speaker 1:

And if I can just interact with pro tip for feedback within your team, values are the biggest, biggest tool that you can give your team members. That provide them a framework to being able to give each other feedback that is in a really respected way.

Speaker 2:

So how do you just sound so cool saying pro tip and I just sounded like. I sounded like the biggest tool.

Speaker 1:

Some people can pull it off, some people can't, but if you have values that are lived within your organization, then they give your team members a framework to have a really quite casual, respectful conversation. Going hey, simon, you know, this morning when you were a bit frustrated at person Jane I'll use Jane because Jane's your wife's name when you're a bit frustrated with Jane, do you think that's the way you spoke to her? No, you went Jane's perfect. We know that it's all the problems. You no just joking, but you can go and say to you know, simon, I saw that frustration you had this morning with Jane. Do you think that that was in line with our values? Do you think that you could have done that a little bit better? Do you think, have you thought about how maybe Jane's feeling after that? It can be a really casual conversation. You know it might be a little bit awkward because I'm actually forcing Simon to take some accountability for the way he behaved that morning, but it can be in a really casual conversation.

Speaker 2:

This is theoretical, by the way.

Speaker 1:

let's just it is a conversation we had the other day. No, just joking, but if you don't, if you have values, then you need to be embedding them to be able to give your team members the ability to use them as a framework. If you don't have values and you're thinking, hmm, gee, our values, don't give our team members that framework, you need to call we can have a chat to you about that, because they are the biggest win you can get for your team members. They are, if you have values and you are living them and your team members know them, they are the biggest quick win you can get for them to be able to have these discussions at Simon. We're talking about between them, sorry.

Speaker 2:

My pro tip. My pro tip, I think it's because you create it to be a.

Speaker 1:

You know, I was just like pro tip. Here it is.

Speaker 2:

I think it's because you're like my pro tip. You just lift it off the cuff there, pro tip, and I'll just sit here all awkward and start to say let's go, let's hear it.

Speaker 1:

We're all waiting for the pro tip now.

Speaker 2:

Every leader should be having frequent and by frequent I really mean weekly. But if you're going to tell me someone out there that you just literally can't do it because you've got too many direct reports or whatever, okay, well, try and find a frequency you can do. But a frequent one-on-one check-in with each person on your team. That's not because so far I've said nothing really pro tip have I? Here's the pro tip about it that's not focused in any way on technicalities and widgets and numbers of things that you've done and tasks and all that sort of stuff. It's purely focused on the big picture how are people going, what's working for them, what's not.

Speaker 2:

Because in that discussion you can provide both of the golden bookends. In that discussion you can make sure that they're clear on objectives and you can make sure that they're hearing plenty of feedback that lets them know whether they're on track or not. Clarity I get out of the car in the morning, walk into work knowing what good looks like. Feedback I go home at night knowing whether I've done a good job or not. Both of those things can be accomplished in those regular one-on-one discussions. The other thing you can do there is get plenty of feedback about the impact you're having on their for normalized feedback Pro tip whether you're known.

Speaker 1:

Oh look, I think you might have improved the pro tip as we got through the segment.

Speaker 2:

Listeners, practice your feedback.

Speaker 1:

Feel free to provide us with some feedback for Simon on whether we think that pro tip was nailed or not.

Speaker 2:

No, just Come up with a new name for my pro tip. That's going to help you All right. Well, as we said Sunday afternoon, I think we have families we need to return to and I have to return to packing for my trips to parts tropical.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I just love talking about this kind of topic and I'm going from really loving talking about this to going to high school uniforms. It's my time living the dream.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think I'm off to handle some science homework.

Speaker 1:

We will earn the gin and tonic come five o'clock I'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 2:

listeners, and in the meantime, stay authentic.