🗨️ Authentic Conversations: The Urgent Conversation We Need to Have.

In this episode we have an Authentic Conversation, a raw and honest conversation about men's violence against women. 

To say it's a massive problem in Australia is an understatement. Violence and aggression can take many forms that span from small micro-aggressions all the way through to rape and murder. It effects ALL women, with the most vulnerable and marginalised in our community, at the greatest risk. We don’t have the answers to solve it. But we don’t want to remain silent. 

If you are a man concerned about your behaviour please contact No To Violence: https://bit.ly/3UlyiA5

If you feel like you are in immediate danger please call 000. If you need someone to talk to we recommend the national 24-hour sexual assault, family and domestic violence counselling line 1800 RESPECT on 1800 732 732.Or, you can call SafeSteps, Victoria's 24/7 family violence crisis service, on 1800 015 188, or visit this link: https://bit.ly/4b1SlsQ. They can provide financial and material aid, pet safety support and court advocacy, as well as support to people with a disability. Or, for further support, contact The Orange Door, who can link you with family violence and parental support services: https://bit.ly/3Q8efTb

If you need support now, use Ask Izzy: a free website and service that connects people in need with housing, a meal, money help, family violence support & counselling: https://bit.ly/3xAVnG4

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Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au

Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi listeners, it's Kiralee here. We would like to prelude today's episode with a content warning. We recorded this episode last Thursday because we believe the discussion around women feeling safe and what this looks like in everyday life is an important discussion and vital awareness for leaders and organisations to have. What we didn't imagine happening was the terrible events that took place over the weekend in Westfield, bondi Junction in Sydney, australia. We do strongly feel this is still a topic that needs more awareness, which is why we have made the decision to proceed with the podcast episode.

Speaker 1: 0:35

Listener discretion is advised as these discussions may be triggering or upsetting for some individuals. We encourage listeners to prioritise their mental health and wellbeing while engaging in this content. Anyone needing someone to talk to, we encourage you to call Beyond Blue 1300 22 46 36. Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the Elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners and welcome to another episode of their Culture Nerds, a leadership podcast. My name is Kiralee and with me is my co-host, simon Tyson. Hi Simon, how are you going?

Speaker 2: 1:25

I'm good Kiralee.

Speaker 1: 1:26

How are you Good today? We have a topic today that we've had a lot of discussions around this about different topics that shoot off this, haven't we, simon?

Speaker 2: 1:39

We've talked about what that means in our workplace, but also in other workplaces, and given that we do a fair bit of travel and we're in different places as well, it kind of all rolls off yeah, yeah, most recently it was that we were sitting together, um in darwin I think, and we'd been doing some work there and we were treating ourselves at the end of the day with a glass of something nice, and I think we were chatting about it there. You'd read an article that you sent me. Yeah, that was very visceral.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Yeah, so it was in relation to the murders of some women that we've had in Australia, which we don't want to make this about. That it's horrible. It's really heartbreaking what's going on and how prevalent it's becoming. But the article that I shared with Simon was an article written by Mia Freeman of Mamma Mia, and it was called why Can't we Go For A Run, and it was basically we called that with a couple of other words added in.

Speaker 1: 2:50

Yeah, a few expletives in there, but I don't want Apple to bar us again. So why Can't we Go For A Run? Yeah, and it was just basically outlining and bringing awareness that why can't we, as women, go for a run without having to be worried about everything that sits around that? And it's not just going for a run either, it's why can't we catch the train to work? Why can't we walk from a restaurant to a bar where our friends might be that we're meeting up? Why can't we walk?

Speaker 1: 3:29

We allow our, you know, 14, 15-year-old daughters to walk home from school, from the bus stop to home. There's so many different ways this plays out, but the article for me was about you know, we're tired of being told to carry our phones and make sure we don't drink too much or wear certain clothes, or let me know when you're leaving, let me know when you arrive, and the mental load that comes with that. And I think for you, Simon, it was a like when we had a chat about it. That way that plays out for us or for me, it was a real awareness to you of going. That's not my lived experience.

Speaker 2: 4:11

That's not what happens to me and blokes listening in out there don't make the mistake of thinking this podcast isn't going to be about leadership, because what we're talking about here is a bit of background, but we think this has massive implications for all of us as leaders. Now, um, the reason I address that comment specifically to the blokes listening is that the women listening do have this lived experience and the, as I read the article kira lee sent me, I think what struck me was it's easy for me to say, oh yeah, I've been out running and felt unsafe, or I've been walking somewhere and didn't feel safe, but I'm thinking of specific instances where I didn't feel safe, where something alarmed me, but I might still have been able to do it rather than. That's my general lived experience and I think what really? It's something that I guess you think as a bloke, you're conscious of this stuff, but it's only when you really read something and the word I used before was visceral when you read something that really hits you in the guts, like this particular and she wrote it beautifully um, she didn't hold back on emotion, but it was a really well put together piece of writing as well.

Speaker 2: 5:35

It wasn't just a an emotional dump, but it. Yeah it was. It was filled with emotion, but it was. It was really thought-provoking when, when you read something like that, you go, oh gee, I thought I had my head round this, but I really don't and I probably never will, because it will never be my lived experience.

Speaker 1: 5:55

I really liked the end of the article and this is where the segue that we'll make into why we wanted to talk about this and the relation it's got to leadership is that she's written. We cannot be more vigilant. It's not possible. What we need now is the help of men. We need them to take up this cause as their own, to help us with the load. We need them to know how it feels to hear footsteps behind you or to have your cab driver take the wrong turn and immediately wonder is this it, is it my turn? Now?

Speaker 1: 6:22

If men could feel our fear, they would never live with it day in, day out.

Speaker 1: 6:25

They would refuse to. We don't have a choice and I think that that's very much what the link we want to make, because we could talk about this all day, because it is horrific, it is absolutely horrific what is happening to women and what we see on the news almost weekly now. But we want to talk about, as leaders, what we can do in our organisations so that we know women feel safe, and not only women, minority groups of society, like we were talking yesterday when we were discussing, talking about this and I said you know hearing when we had that episode with Archie and I will drop their episode link in and they spoke about how it feels to go into certain bathrooms if there isn't a neutral gender bathroom and you know how that's an unsafe feeling for them and that's the way this all plays out. The relation to workplace culture and the role we as leaders have into trying to understand what the lived experience is and how that we can learn more, know more and be better in our role.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Yeah, absolutely, I think there's. She finished the article by saying we now need help from men. I think it's a really good question. So, as leaders, what could that look like, and what's our sphere of influence? Is it just as leaders in our job or, if we're capable of being leaders in that sphere, are we capable of showing a bit of leadership beyond that?

Speaker 1: 8:08

So, simon, I'm going to ask you in our organisation what has been some key steps to you. Do you think becoming more aware of the situation and, I guess, going from a point of yeah, I know that that happens to wow, I didn't realize that it was to that extent, or I didn't realize that it was so often that you feel like this, or I didn't realize that how this plays out for people look, I think we all suffer, don't we, from that someone else syndrome.

Speaker 2: 8:46

And, yeah, you know, and and we could be talking about someone having a heart attack at a young age or, um, being in a car accident or whatever and we we do tend to I'm not quite sure it's not depersonalised we do tend to trivialise some of those things by it happens to someone else. It doesn't happen to me until it does happen to you or someone near you. And I think probably the biggest realisation for me has been that, because it's really easy to go, oh, that's awful what's happening over there, and I genuinely find it appalling and awful. But moments have happened where you all of a sudden realize this isn't something that's the extreme stuff that we read about in the news might have happened to someone else, but a lot of people around me that I really care about are having a version of that experience and all of a sudden that brought it closer. And I think I said to you one time we were sitting and talking about this I've sort of got this circle of females around me in sort of like it's this full circle.

Speaker 2: 9:57

I've got a daughter who's a young teenage daughter, my wife Joan. I've got you as a very close friend and a colleague. I've got my mum, I've got close female friends, you know, outside work, and so all of a sudden I've got this full circle and I've always had a lot of female friends and so on and women around me. But I guess it's having those close relationships all around you and hearing from all of those people, and I think it's seeing the things that you have to do and hearing the thoughts that you have, that would never occur to me.

Speaker 2: 10:41

And even today, as we've been recording this, you know that would never occur to me. And even today, as we've been recording this, you know, whenever we're travelling anywhere together and you're catching an Uber, you share the location with me so I can track you and so I can see if you've stopped somewhere. And it only just occurred to me. I sort of almost yeah, that's what we do, but it's never, ever entered my mind to do that in reverse. Yeah, the only reason I would do that in reverse is so you know what time I'm getting there, so that if we're planning to go and have a meal or something or go to work or whatever, you know what time I'm going to get there.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Yeah yeah, it had never occurred to me to do that in reverse yeah, not for a safety reason, which is exactly why I do it, because I had a friend that had a very bad experience with an uber driver that she was very lucky to and that's not all uber drivers, because I we use uber all the time and we have great uber, but you don't know until you don't know, and so it's. And on that I actually noticed. Last week I had quite a long Uber ride and Uber sent me a message that said you've been in the Uber for an extended period of time. Are you safe? Yeah, and I could hit yes or no, which I was like wow, that's both interesting and good. That's something that they've had to implement.

Speaker 2: 12:11

You know, I've had some long Uber rides and I've never got one of those messages.

Speaker 1: 12:14

Yeah, so I don't know whether it's something new or not, but yeah it was asking Because you're female. Yeah, you just don't know. But you're right, that is a safety thing and it's something that you don't even think to do.

Speaker 2: 12:31

And it's seeing those and hearing some of the thought processes and some of the conversations we'll have and you'll say something and I go, wow, that's a thought that I've never had.

Speaker 1: 12:42

It's also being a dad to a young teenage daughter yeah, and I think we had a conversation in Adelaide once, where we'll often be places, and you and it was probably a couple of years ago now and it had been kind of over summer and we'd been in Adelaide and we'd been in a lot of different places and you'd gone out walking and I'd gone out walking at different times and we'd been in Sydney and then we got to Adelaide and then I I didn't walk for a couple of times we'd been, we'd been there, and then you said to me oh, don't you like walking anymore? And I said, oh no, I don't like, I don't want to go walking in the dark because it was winter and yeah, to get to be able to walk it. And you were like what? And I said, oh no, I don't, I won't go in the dark. And you went. I never thought that that would be the reason, and it's that same thing.

Speaker 2: 13:29

You said it was the region we were in, I thought, because there's some areas that I would, in the dark, think, okay, I'm not so sure, but this particular place again, for me the presumption of safety was there and I think it's almost a reverse presumption, a presumption of safety versus the presumption of not being safe. Yeah, and I think I don't want to throw you under the bus here, but there was also a fair bit of sooking about walking in the rain one morning.

Speaker 1: 13:56

There is a difference between going for a walk before work and walking in rain in the middle of winter. I don't live in Hobart, so that's not normal for me.

Speaker 2: 14:09

Rain is very little here, but yes, it was. I think the time we were talking about I was going for a run, yeah, and you know that thought that you had to make that choice, that if I was running rather than walking you then couldn't go out, that in my head again, that removal of liberty and freedom and choice, was just phenomenal. And I think for leaders listening to this and again, a lot of our female leaders are having this lived experience, so there's nothing I can tell you. But for male leaders out there, I can, I guess, presume to hopefully share some of my insights with you and again, I'm not pretending I've got the answers or I'm doing this right, I'm just trying to figure it out but I think we have to have that awareness that the people in our teams, women in our teams, are having the experience that we don't get and we can do our best and we can be trying to be conscious and we still don't get it.

Speaker 2: 15:16

And because I'm constantly surprised, after spending so much time talking about this with you and with my wife and thinking about it as a father and being surrounded by people I care about who are female, I'm constantly surprised by what I still haven't got, and I think, as leaders recognise, there's things you don't get. So sometimes you've just got to ask what do I need to do? What do I need to do to make this safe? And you know, I think it's I. What I've learned is there are so many times a woman may not feel safe in the workplace for a reason of like wine, so yeah, yeah, and that's probably a fair assumption.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Not necessarily something that's going to happen all the time, but I think it's a fair assumption that in some places, that sometimes that absolutely does happen.

Speaker 2: 16:06

Yeah, you talked about before, talking about Uber drivers and how they're great and so on, but you don't know until you don't know. And I just want to share two stories that collectively had this massive aha moment for me. And again other people might hear this and go oh well, I got that already. For me, this is a light bulb, went on, and I'm sure it's not the brightest light bulb, I'm sure there's another one I need, but it was the start of something for me. Years ago I was running on one of the beaches near where I live. Years ago I was running on one of the beaches near where I live and this dog came racing up to me and I kicked it away and the owner was outraged. They came running up to me and said it doesn't bite. And I said I didn't bloody know that until it didn't bite me. And I was quite. It was a big dog and it was quite a frightening experience and I just reacted and they couldn't get what I was saying that I didn't know it wouldn't bite me until it didn't bite me. And it may have been really friendly and I didn't hurt the dog, by the way. I just sort of watered it off with my foot To say I kicked it gives me credit for more coordination than I've got. I still in my head at some, on some levels, when a lot of the issues that were hitting the media about women being unsafe, on some level I did what a lot of blokes did and in fact I did what I think most blokes did. That we went. That's awful, but we also felt a little bit stung by why are we all being branded with the same you know, why are we all being tarred with the same brush? I'm not that guy so, even having had that experience with the dog, I didn't, I didn't quite join those dots until another day I was out running on the other beach near where I live and I was running up and down the beach. It was just one of those mornings where it was just beautiful on the beach and I thought I'd just prefer to do laps up and down the beach than run somewhere else and not have the same joy. And there was a lady running on the beach at the same time and we passed each other a few times and sort of smiled and did that sort of stuff. And one time the timing was just ridiculously unfortunate as I was running along, a wave came crashing in. I darted up the beach to avoid the wave which just happened to have me darting straight towards her. The look of fear on her face will stay with me for the rest of my life. And the look of fear, and then the look of horror on her face because she saw the look on my face and she almost felt bad which is crazy that she'd made me feel like I was going to attack her and I felt terrible that I'd frightened her so badly. And in that moment that thought came back to me, the thought I had about the dog. I didn't know whether it would bite me until it didn't bite me. In that moment I was the dog and she didn't know I wasn't going to bite until I didn't bite. And even for her to have felt that much fear for that moment really shocked me and really impacted me. And I think for me the switch that went on then was you've got to stop saying oh, it's awful, but I'm not that sort of guy. We've got to say instead of you know, this is awful, but I'm not like that, we've got to say we're men, we are the problem, we are collectively the problem. And until we own that as men and for me, this is the number one thing I think I can do right now, in addition to trying to recognise there's things I don't yet understand. But I've also got to accept that as a man I am the problem, whether I would personally do any of that stuff or not. As a man, on the problem, I have to take responsibility for what my gender, my demographic is doing, and I think if men do that we then we're mindful of our own behavior, but we're also very willing to call out behaviour we see around us.

Speaker 1: 20:45

Yeah, that's not acceptable.

Speaker 2: 20:47

We're also. We also recognise that we are the dog that might bite until we don't bite, and that's just the reality. And instead of being offended by that as offended as I might feel that someone might look at me and think he might do that to me, imagine being the person who's thinking is he going to do that to me? I mean, we're experiencing this tiny thing that's annoying and you know not how I want to see myself. The people around us are experiencing incredible fear and once we recognise that and stop bleating about you know, it's not fair that we're all tarred with the same brush and just accept we are men, therefore we are the problem. I think we've got more chance to change. I don't know what you think about that.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Yeah, look, and I actually shared it with you the other day. One of my friends, one of the school mums, went for a run last week on. We Live Regionally, so rurally, and she was running on just like one of the backtrack roads and there was a man running towards her and she had gone to fix her headphones and change something on her phone and not realised. And then looked up and there was. He was running towards her and he hadn't done anything wrong and she said the look of fear on her face must have been enough and he just put his hands up the air and said I'm not going to hurt you, I'm just running. I'm not here to hurt you, but it's like that's what we live in, like that's collectively what we live in now, isn't it? It's just not what we live in as women. This is what we live in now that innocent men going for a run as well are the ones going. I'm not going to hurt you, I'm just. I'm really sorry to be running on the same road as you and I feel instead of and this is me, with no lived experience of being a man, but be mad about that at other men, like, be mad that you're being tarred with the same brush because and that's what she said she goes. Is this the world we live in now, where two people run past each other, one person is scared, one person has to plead the innocence so that that person then trusts enough to run past them? Yeah, and that's the interaction that two strangers have.

Speaker 1: 22:56

And the reality is it could be very different, because the road that she was running on could very well have been somewhere where someone so it's it's again. You don't know, the dog's not going to bite until the dog doesn't bite. But I absolutely, you know, I am married to a good man, I work with you, you're a good man, I'm surrounded by so many good men and I and I I go. You know that's not, that's not them, but they should be mad that it's the other men. Give it like, and it is, it is all men.

Speaker 1: 23:23

Because, you're exactly right, it is all men. We don well, as a woman, if you're in a situation where you feel unsafe, you don't know who that person is until you know you're safe and you know that they're no longer around you or near you or whatever might be happening. That gives you that feeling, but it does. It makes me mad as a female looking at the men in my life. I've got a son growing up and you know he's growing up in a world where he's part of that. He's not the problem, but he's part of that demographic.

Speaker 2: 23:51

Well, that's what my generation of men are leaving for the next generation of men to inherit the mantle yeah, look, I think about me on that beach and that lady running, yeah. Or I think about the guy in the bush and the lady running, yeah, and I think about which one would I prefer to be. Would I prefer the person that has that awful moment where someone thinks you might hurt them, which isn't a nasty thing? I don't want to think that. I don't want people to think about it, about myself. Or do I want to hurt the person who has fear all of their life?

Speaker 1: 24:29

Oh, and it's awful because in that moment you're thinking and knowing I've had these moments before what happens if this turns bad? What do I do? Where do I try to run to? Do I scream? Do I try to fight? Do I try to get away? And often you don't have. And this doesn't matter whether you're running, whether you're walking to your car at night, whether you're late night shopping, whether you're early morning in a car park, going to get an early start to the day at work, going to the gym, you know, going for a walk after work. There's all these different. And it's just. You know, you almost have a million things play out in your mind and someone's just running past you yeah, but maybe they're not as well and someone's just running past you, yeah, but maybe they're not as well, and you think about that.

Speaker 2: 25:08

We often talk about people when they imagine the worst and play it over and over. It's like living through that experience to some degree. That's what's happening. You're actually having to live through that experience.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely as it is that experience. So, simon, as a leader as a senior leader you're the CEO of our organisation and as someone that works with a lot of other leaders and has a lot of experience, what advice do you give to other leaders on how we try to find a way forward? We're not going to be able to solve this problem, but how do we try to find a way forward and how do we be better leaders in understanding the situation, simon?

Speaker 2: 25:48

I'm highly unqualified to give that advice, but I'm going to try anyway, and that shouldn't come as a surprise. And this is not fair on women either. I almost need a woman to tell me that, because I can only do what I think, and we've got a bloody proven track record of getting it very wrong. As blokes, we're not doing a very good job of it. So I try and listen a lot to what you tell me, um, and I, so I don't want to make it your responsibility. It's my responsibility to be in tune with what you're you ask more questions now, don't you?

Speaker 1: 26:22

and you'll often say to me if I, if we're going somewhere and it's late at night or something like that, and I'll go, you know I'll, I'll meet you there or whatever You're like, are you okay to do that? Do you feel okay to do that?

Speaker 2: 26:34

Yeah, and it's hard.

Speaker 1: 26:35

And it's not that I'm incapable of doing it, and I never feel like you're making me feel like I'm incapable of doing it. It's just making sure, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 26:45

I think it's that. I think it's questions on two levels. I think it's questions about to try and become more enlightened. I think that's you know, have the conversations, have the sort of conversations we had over a glass of wine in Darwin or we've had countless times. You know, particularly when we travel together, we sort of sit with, we spend, we have more time to sit together and talk. So I think the pieces of advice I would give are take the time to have the conversation, to be enlightened and forget your perspective, try and hear the perspective of the women around you in your team and in your life. I think you do need to do more to check in and, I've got to be honest, I've got that blokey fear of. I said to you recently about a trip that's coming up that you're making to a client alone and I asked you the question what's your plan to eat?

Speaker 1: 27:46

Yeah, because I was arriving late at night.

Speaker 2: 27:48

And because I'm worried about this particular place at the moment and because I thought you're arriving late at night. And because I'm worried about this particular place at the moment and because I thought you're arriving late at night if the place where you're staying doesn't have so I felt, though, a little bit of fear, asking that question because I don't want to treat you like you're incompetent. Yeah, I just felt as, first, as your friend and secondly, as a leader in the organisation, I felt a responsibility to make sure there was a plan around that, because unfortunately, and that's how it landed.

Speaker 2: 28:23

Yeah, and I think that's because we've got an established relationship where you've got the assumption I've got a good intention, rather than you know, and so I think that's hard, I think, but you've got to find a way as a leader to do that. But I think so, ask the questions, try and hear what's happening, because every time I have a conversation with you about it, I have another little moment where I go jeez, that wasn't in my thinking and that helps. But I think the two really big things are outside of that as a bloke, accept that it's your problem. It's not about other men, it's about men in general and that we have to do. We have to draw a line for ourselves but for the people around us, and as leaders, we have an extra opportunity to do that because we can draw some lines, we can have conversations that help other men see things. Yeah, I think that that's really that. That's the best I've got and I don't feel like it's enough, but I hope that I keep having something better and better by becoming more knowledgeable.

Speaker 2: 29:35

I think it is also recognising that there's an experience that people are having, that women are having, that we're not having, and don't assume just because it's all fine for you, it will be fine for them. And you know it's like me going out for a run but not stopping to think that means you can't go out. Um, yeah, yeah. Or you know it's, um, it's. I need to. I need to accept that you're having an experience that I'm not having, that you're living something that I can't actually comprehend. I can try and understand it, but I can't literally feel what it feels like. So I think that's been probably really important for me to do that and then adapt my behaviours, adapt some of the things I do to accommodate that, because I care for you as my friend, I care for you as my co-worker. So sometimes that might mean I need to change something to accommodate the experience you're having, rather than assuming your experience is identical to mine, because it's clearly not.

Speaker 1: 30:45

And that also means that when you are more aware, like you have a big awareness when you're out running now, don't you?

Speaker 2: 30:52

Oh yeah. So now when I'm approaching a woman I'm out running, I sort of almost take a bit of a detour and again it's a really sad indictment on the world, but knowing that's how she might feel, or I try and make sure I don't. Just, I'm pretty flat footed so I make a fair thud when I run, so you can hear me coming a while off, but I try and make sure that I don't startle a female when I'm running, that I don't just sort of appear from somewhere. So I am more conscious of how that may impact me and may impact someone else. And again I modify that a bit. But even just walking down the street so I'll walk further from someone that I probably need to, because I'm almost trying to send the message. I'm not the dog that bites.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:50

And I can say that all I like, but maybe just my working further away or whatever. I've even crossed the road a few times where I've seen a woman walking towards me alone down the street at night and I might cross the road to be on the other side. So she doesn't have that fear as I have, Because in my head, imagining her having that fear as I, because that's in my head, imagining her having that fear as I get closer and asking those questions in her mind, that's awful.

Speaker 2: 32:18

So if I can take those away by crossing the road. It's more price to pay. So, yes, I do a few things like that I do in the workplace. I do some things that probably just almost to make sure it's really clear where my head's at, and that try and reduce any sense of do I need to be concerned about myself here?

Speaker 1: 32:41

Yeah, and we don't have the answers, nor do we think we're qualified enough to be saying this is the solution to these problems. But I think if people listening, if we can just create some awareness out of this discussion of going. You know what? I never thought of it like that. Or you know, maybe I do need to ask these questions, or huh? Yeah, I can understand why. And you know, being a leader isn't just about being a leader in your organization. You know, being a leader is being a leader in the community that you live in, and sometimes you can make people feel safe without having to even interact with them. And I'll almost guarantee, simon, that when you've crossed the road, if it's been at night time, it would be more often than not that woman would breathe a sigh of relief.

Speaker 2: 33:31

Yeah, yeah, which is so awful but so good that we can make a difference with one simple action. And I just think there's. I think what happens is the more you. There's sort of a bit of a cycle for me, surrounded by females that I've got strong relationships with and I care a lot about, that then leads me to see things differently, to ask different questions, probably, to have different conversations. That then shifts some of my understanding and perspective and that then leads to small behavioural challenge. And so, to be honest, I'm a bit annoyed that I probably had to wait until I had that.

Speaker 2: 34:18

I don't think I've ever been, I don't think I've had to make huge change, but I definitely had to have more understanding and make change. So I don't think I was doing the wrong thing before, but the fact that I didn't have that insight until I had this sort of almost perfect circle of of of women I really care about around me. I've always had women I care about around me, but it's almost like in every part of my life. Yeah, it's sort of this and maybe, maybe it's not the fact that those that that circle is there, maybe it's just the world has changed and things are happening that make me think about the relationship I have, I don't know what it is, but, and you know you probably you probably are at a stage where you're right, the world is changing, you're having different types of conversations.

Speaker 1: 35:05

you're raising a teenage daughter where this becomes so much more real, for because up until now she doesn't go anywhere without you guys.

Speaker 2: 35:14

But now that she's becoming a teenager and she's becoming a young woman, she's going to be going well, she does go places on her own and she's going to be going more places on her own, so that worry becomes a lot more real for you, and so I guess I'm talking myself sort of to a point here that if I was to give another male leader some advice, it would be ask, have conversations and listen, without using your own lived experience to justify why a woman's lived experience is not valid, why a woman's lived experience is not valid because you can't understand a woman's lived experience through your own lens.

Speaker 2: 35:59

It's just not possible, and I think what happens when you're surrounded by people you care about is you're much more likely to see it through their lens rather than yours because you care. And when someone tells you you I feel frightened doing this or I don't feel so it it like it really impacts because you've got that care there, yeah, and whatever the whatever helps you get there. Don't justify it with your own lived experience because it's not relevant, it's not valid. Hear it through their lived experience and and try to try to imagine what that must be like and recognise that as blokes, we've got the privilege of not having to do all those things.

Speaker 1: 36:40

Yeah, the majority of people don't have the privilege.

Speaker 2: 36:45

Yeah, and it shouldn't be a privilege, it should be a right.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:50

But the very fact is that there's some of us, there's demographics that are more likely to have that than others.

Speaker 1: 36:57

Yeah, absolutely yeah. And I think, as leaders in workplaces, think about when, especially in larger organisations, when you have new staff come in that might not necessarily have the connections or might not be in the groups that might have formed within teams. Check in with them and see how they are. You know, are they okay if they're arriving early in the morning or they're leaving late at night or they have to walk to a car park or you know? Make sure that they're okay with that and that's just. It's a really simple question, but it could go a long way for someone that hasn't yet made those connections, or those friend groups where someone might feel comfortable Because it's not, you know, sometimes and I know some of my male friends will offer they'll say oh, do you want me to walk you to your car?

Speaker 1: 37:43

For someone you don't know, that could be a red flag as well. Really important that if you're someone that is trusted for people, if you are, say, a people and culture, or if you are their direct manager or a leader within their team, if you can just touch base because I'm sure there's people around them that would do what they can, but just they're those little one percenters I think that as leaders, we can be joining the workplace just to make sure that people know they're safe and feel they're safe and know that there's people around them if they do need it.

Speaker 2: 38:16

And be thick-skinned men, because you know what Women are disproportionately harmed by people that they know, and so if someone responds to you in a way that seems more defensive than your perception of your relationship justifies, just remember that knowing the bloke doesn't make it safe for a woman, and so you know. Naturally, you maybe think about that when you said you know you might offer to walk someone to a car because you know the person, they know you, you. You know you're safe, but that's not a guarantee, and while in your head it might be a guarantee, it may not be for the woman involved yeah, absolutely thanks.

Speaker 2: 39:01

Clearly, I have really enjoyed talking about this.

Speaker 1: 39:04

It provokes me to think more and more yeah, it's a topic that I I wish we didn't have to talk about, but I think it needs to be talked about more and we need to get more comfortable as teams, as organisations. We need to get more comfortable with talking about this because it is a very, very big problem.

Speaker 2: 39:27

Yes, yeah, and I was going to unload on the peanut who just got himself a court order to allow him into the female area at Mona. So I was going to unload on you, pal. You are a peanut. You've spoiled something really important because of your ego, and I think it's really regrettable. That's the sort of behaviour we don't want to see, so I didn't want to get through the episode without I was listening to again, it was Mamma Mia.

Speaker 1: 40:01

I love listening to their topics and they had a podcast and they said part of his argument was that he was missing out on the experience. And the artist said you are having an experience. The experience is that you can't go in there. The experience is you can go everywhere there, but not there. That's your experience. It did make me laugh. That probably just enraged him even more.

Speaker 2: 40:26

Well, I hope so. That's the sort of thinking that is entrenching. You know, it's the self-entitled, it's the only seeing the world from your own self-righteous position and probably and I don't know this guy, but I would say from probably a fairly entitled position probably the demographic that is causing along with me I belong to it as well that is causing a lot of these issues and, as I say, has brought something so important through that self-righteousness, through a bit of swinging of appendages. There you go, apple. I was very clean about that. So, yes, I couldn't finish the show without having a swing.

Speaker 2: 41:19

Yeah, yeah, and on that note, I thought you were trying to choice of words. Thank you, kiralee. Thank you for provoking me. Thank you, for men have demonstrated that we're not all that good at figuring this out ourselves. So thank you for being part of helping me as I go on this journey, because you challenge me and you provoke me and you're willing to be really vulnerable with me around what's going on for you, and that's. I learn so much from that.

Speaker 1: 42:09

Well, it's my pleasure and I just I really do hope it's. I'm really conscious that, like I said, I don't want this to be about negative towards men. I just really hope that the men that have listened to this episode today have got a little bit more awareness that can go on and make them and help them have some awareness for the people in their lives not just at work but the people in their lives that they can have a little bit more insight about.

Speaker 2: 42:44

Great note to finish on. Thank you, kiralee. See you all next time and in the meantime, stay authentic.